User:Erkan Yilmaz/some thoughts

Please feel free to edit here (no userpage authority by me)...

Some thoughts while reading up on "things" from the Dutch Wikiversity:

what is the minimal solution "everyone" would be happy with?
- see also [1], [2]
- any page can be turned into a useful learning resource, but: this requires effort
let's go together through the existing Dutch WV policies/rules (see also: Wikiversity talk:Policies/Nl). What do we (dis-)agree upon?
which past requests were not (fully) fulfilled yet? (expl.) why? let's make a learning project
- also for future new WV learners
  - this is not the 1st time for "different opinions" on WV :-( Where did (we as) WV community fail?
time: I see no pressing issue atm, since there are backups made by T. and we can restore anytime
- so, when restoring: in small batches is a good thing
  - so, which ones first?
  - invite people for improvement
- more options: all the deleted pages could be imported/added in another (newly created) wiki also (for assessment, wiki studies, preparing for reimport here, ...)
- or: restoring the pages as subpages to a user space here AND adding a template above on all those (explaining: why it was restored, the next steps for that page being done, a date set until when the "review/improvements" should be done (if not finished until X.y.2014: delete again?)...)
  - identifying people for this review/improvement task with clear time goal, e.g. weekly
    - I think this will be a huge task :-( so I still think the "minimal approach" (undeleting specific pages which T. wants + work on them) is the better way

If people read on some of my edits (at en.WV) they'll see: I don't like deletions, I consider more things as a learning resource, ...

but: people like that are in the minority, a dying kind...

Actually, Erkan, I don't think you have noticed how rare deletion has become on en.wikiversity. You are not, there, in the minority, you are mainstream, I think. I wrote what's below before you added that comment. We now act, routinely, to move material to where it is educationally useful, and into user space if it's marginal, only truly useless stuff gets deleted, typically stuff that is found much later, and there is no active user maintaining it, there is no obvious path to improvement, and, usually, very little was invested in the page, so deletion does no harm -- and these deletions are easily reversed on simple request. We have learned to avoid the massive train wrecks that deletion discussions can become. There are few exceptions, involving relatively arcane issues. Timboliu's work here would not have required a deletion discussion on en.wv, I'm sure, yet most would still have been deleted, probably. With his cooperation. We'll know more accurately if my request is granted. --Abd (talk) 23:13, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

From my understanding, Erkan, most pages can stay deleted, as to being in mainspace, the problem is finding some consensus on that with pages that are not visible to ordinary users. If the pages are undeleted but left in place, the wishes of a substantial number of Dutch users, right or wrong. are neglected.

The pages could all be undeleted and moved to user space for Timboliu, but I think it would be useful to have another user take responsibility for these pages, and I have, on occasion, done that on en.wikiversity, hence I suggested my user space. My opinion at this point is that most pages were probably properly deleted, but many spurious arguments are being advanced, such as the story that Timboliu is a "promoter." It makes no sense, promoters don't waste years on creating piles of notes and generally useless pages. Further, the "evidence" for that has been, very likely, deleted. It has become he-said, she said. (What I saw, though, was not convincing at all. It was hostile and shallow, suspicious interpretation.)

I find it an interesting issue, there was a rush to delete, with over 5000 pages deleted in a short process, out of broad community visibility. What was the result? I'm sure there were pages deleted that could be educational resources, I know that several pages remain that could be such, with normal Wikiversity policies. So what actually happened? If there were unnecessary deletions, how many? That's "wiki studies" information, and this is a prime opportunity to gather that data, while, at the same time, allowing the user who created many of the pages (I don't know how many and it's impossible to tell because of the deletions), an opportunity to help with cleanup, i.e., to sort through the material, as he could have been invited to do in the first place.
- I asked here for specific help, which in my view could help to increase trust on "both sides". This "slow approach" will probably also help to foster the Dutch Wv policy more, since they could be adapted/changed with the specific examples. ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 09:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

This kind of collaboration is something we see on Wikversity that is often missing on the wikipedias. The result would be, with Timboliu, a more sophisticated user, better able to hear community complaints and respond positively. And something of importance might be demonstrated to the rest of the Dutch community, that could very positively impact the future of the Dutch Wikiversity.

So, while there is no emergency, I do recommend immediate undeletion, en masse, with immediate move to user space, no redirects left behind. With a bot, it's less work than doing it in pieces. I don't want to work on the study piecemeal, it will complicate it, data will need to be updated as new material is provided, etc. This is much better than restoration from exports, especially if Timboliu did not save the edit history. Further, there may be many pages that Timboliu did not create, I know of at least one, so far.

As to questions about "existing Dutch Wikipedia policies/rules," such as they are, they were created in a rush, over the last few weeks, they have no standing in tradition. The procedure in Template:Weg, however, calls for a decision to be made by a custodian, violating general traditions that deletion decisions are made by the community. Romaine did not seem to understand that we know full well about triple process, i.e.,

Speedy deletion
Proposed deletion
Deletion discussion.

What Romaine created was like Proposed deletion, but with a requirement for a custodian decision. What is normally done with proposed deletion is that any user may remove the template. It is really a slow form of Speedy deletion, where the page might have a little less obviousness as to deletion reason.

Romaine was not aware that discussed deletion was also a norm on Beta. It's done through a custodian request page. The concept that a custodian must decide has been proposed here and rejected.
However, having said all this, I do think it's up to Dutch users to determine Dutch Wikiversity policy. Non-Dutch users, like myself, still have a critical interest in overall process, that genuine community consensus is found, not something that is transient and canvassed. That takes time. It is not actually a custodial decision, it is up to the entire community, and the concern is a global one.
I have not reviewed much of the policy discussion on Wikiversity:Forum, the new Dutch page where policy may have been considered. I have only seen and have referred to a little of it, particularly about original research, where opinions were given, by Romaine and possibly others, that amount to the prohibition of original research, which, then, creates a Wikiversity that would be a pale imitation of an encyclopedia, missing the vast realm of educational opportunities that involve original research. Original research is part of the curriculum and process of any advanced educational institution.
It is not necessary here to assess Dutch "policy," however, beyond one claim that is now being made, that pages in user space must be approved by the Dutch community. That seems to assume that the Dutch community controls user space here, which is a radical departure from anything I have seen on Beta before. How and why should the Dutch community have control of my user space, given that I am not Dutch? I can see the argument if the categories that indicate "Dutch Wikiversity" are maintained on those pages, but I'd suggest, in fact, that these categories be removed as part of the page recovery process. The only claim the Dutch community would have is that the pages would be in Dutch. Which is not a legitimate claim. If the pages are illegal in some way, of course, any user may point that out, not just Dutch users.
One more point. If there is anything worth keeping as pages for the Dutch Wikiversity, I would not move them there myself. I would oppose Timboliu moving them back himself, without finding consent from the Dutch community. This is a win-win solution that should address the legitimate needs of all users, including Timboliu. From what I've seen, he is eager to learn. That makes for a great Wikiversitan, long-term. --Abd (talk) 23:13, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

About 80 to 90% of the deleted pages are pages like this. Pages without any context, a sentence of one or two about what the company is, how it was in the news recently, a note about when Timboliu presented himself as Wikiversity towards an individual (with addressed complaints about that), and sometimes some links to other pages. All these pages have been deleted as they are considered as no educational content. These pages do not belong to a reseach, they do not belong to a course, it are random pages of organisations which were on the news or in newspapers which got a page. About 5% of the pages is about individuals who absolutely did not gave permission to become a public figure this way. Then a large group of pages was about the company Timboliu works for, including advertising, requests for paid editing on the wiki, and more. promoting your own company is considered highly inappropriate.

"The pages could all be undeleted and moved to user space for Timboliu" -> That does not make sense. If there are pages which could easily be improved to stay in the main namespace, such would have done. Also the deleted pages contain various problems which conflict with our basic guidelines.

"It makes no sense, promoters don't waste years on creating piles of notes and generally useless pages." -> You are not able to judge something you haven't seen. The onliest thing here is that you make pure assumptions. On babel I already made you clear that you are not good at making assumptions, so better do not do that any more.

"Further, the "evidence" for that has been, very likely, deleted. It has become he-said, she said. (What I saw, though, was not convincing at all. It was hostile and shallow, suspicious interpretation.)" -> You haven't seen it, because it was already deleted before you came looking. Multiple users have pointed towards this problem, I don't see any reason why you, while you haven't seen these pages and you even do not understand Dutch, can judge that better than the community who nominated these pages for deletion.

"I'm sure there were pages deleted that could be educational resources, I know that several pages remain that could be such, with normal Wikiversity policies." -> Each wiki determines its own policies and guidelines, it is strange to see how English users come up force their own policies like the English community is the onliest community which can decide on what is a good policy. Also it is very interesting to see how you still think to be able to determine that there are pages that could be used as educational resources while you have seen almost none of them.

"This kind of collaboration is something we see on Wikversity that is often missing on the wikipedias." -> The harassments and wrong assumptions we do not consider as collaboration. We also think that ignoring/bypassing the community or going over their heads is collaboration. And if I combine these words from you with the fact you are blocked indefinitely on the English Wikipedia, sorry, but I then think the English community is better in collaborating.

"The result would be, with Timboliu, a more sophisticated user, better able to hear community complaints and respond positively." -> apparently you have missed our many attempts to help and inform Timboliu better, maybe our way of informing wasn't suitable for him. Maybe you can explain it better to him, such would help much more improve the situation.

"So, while there is no emergency, I do recommend immediate undeletion, en masse, with immediate move to user space, no redirects left behind." -> You still ignore the Dutch community, their nominations of deletion and their guidelines. I can't say that the request you make is a constructive one.

"This is much better than restoration from exports, especially if Timboliu did not save the edit history." -> On almost all of the deleted pages the only contributor is Timboliu. In exports/dumps the page history is provided. And you talk about restoring, I still don't know why you consider your opinion more important than the opinion from the Dutch community, because you ignore the fact the pages have been nominated for deletion.

"As to questions about "existing Dutch Wikipedia policies/rules," " -> There are no Dutch Wikipedia policies/rules applying here, besides Assume Good Faith, which is a policy on the English Wikiversity as well. Again, if you come up with such statements, you can't be taken seriously, you make things up instead of actual try to understand what guidelines we have created.

"such as they are, they were created in a rush, over the last few weeks" -> There was no rush, we took all the time we needed to get a basic set of guidelines. There was no rush at all, again a wrong assumption or otherwise a false accusation. When are you planning to stop which such wordings?

"they have no standing in tradition" -> What a fun remark, did you know that the Dutch Wikiversity is still very new?

"The procedure in Template:Weg, however, calls for a decision to be made by a custodian, violating general traditions that deletion decisions are made by the community." -> Again you think to know how the Dutch work, and that the only workable way of community in action is by the procedure you know. Please wake up from your dream, that idea is fiction. The Dutch community has a long term tradition and the community itself choose this procedure on all Dutch wiki's. Why? Because it works. For an outsider like you, it seems that an admin makes the decision, but then you don't see the process underneath it.

"Romaine did not seem to understand that we know full well about triple process, i.e.," -> You only said that you have the opinion that this procedure is violating your idea of how it should be, while you do not understand the complete process. You are very biased.

"I have not reviewed much of the policy discussion on Wikiversity:Forum, the new Dutch page where policy may have been considered. I have only seen and have referred to a little of it, particularly about original research," -> you tried to read it, but you failed in understanding it. And as I said before elsewhere (I still don't know while you repeat it here) the proposal of not allowing original research was rejected!

"that pages in user space must be approved by the Dutch community." -> if a page is deleted because it is considered as inappropriate for Wikiversity, there is no reason to add/move that page to the user namespace. A common rule which I think is practised on all wikis, is that all pages, including pages in the user namespace, should contribute to the goal of that wiki. If a page does not contribute towards that goal, it will be deleted. if a page is deleted as it is considered inappropriate for Wikiversity, it doesn't belong in the user space as well. Ow and yes, multiple pages have been deleted because they violate the copyrights as pieces of texts and text lines have been copied from external copyrighted sources. Not all copyright infringements have been identified.

"This is a win-win solution that should address the legitimate needs of all users," -> you act on your own, outside any community here, outside the Dutch community, beyond the guidelines for the Dutch Wikiversity, and then you think that the Dutch community will agree that you act legitimate and that it is a win-win-solution, sorry no. This is called inappropriate behaviour.

"Timboliu. From what I've seen, he is eager to learn." -> than you clearly have missed all the discussions, all the problems, you have missed everything. Romaine (talk) 01:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

what is the minimal solution "everyone" would be happy with?
- I do not have a clear view with what Timboliu would be happy, such should asked him. But in general saying it is clear that any restoring of pages, that were nominated to be deleted, would make the Dutch community unhappy. Moving them to another location on the wiki does not solve it as the issues are still on the page.
- Second, any involvement in the process of User:Abd would make anyone unhappy, because of the wrong assumptions and harassments he keeps on adding to this wiki, including this page. People on other wikis have been blocked for less. I am fine with Erkan Yilmaz as impartial user involved. If he thinks it is needed, I am happy to help him with looking at the deleted pages.
let's go together through the existing Dutch WV policies/rules. What do we (dis-)agree upon?
- I am fine doing that. For the moment I can describe the background of how the basic guidelines were created. First of all we have in mind that Wikiversity is meant for the creation of educational materials. The other guidelines itself were proposed and discussed by community members based on examples what is going fine and what has problems. If there are any comments on the guidelines we set up as Dutch community, I think we would welcome those constructive thoughts and comments.
which past requests were not (fully) fulfilled yet? why? let's make a learning project
- I do not understand what the question is...
  - I meant things like: "user A asked user B to make X"
  - X was not done or not fully (repeatedly)
  - finding out the reasons about this, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 09:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

time: I see no pressing issue atm, since there are backups made by T. and we can restore anytime
- There is indeed no pressure. However I think this situation would keep most Dutch users away from getting further active, because I think that members of the Dutch community do not want to contribute as long there is a threat/activity that has as aim to restore all the pages that were deleted on community request.
so, when restoring: in small batches is a good thing
- I can say that User:Abd is not able to judge, while I have the impression Erkan Yilmaz is able to judge. I see for him no need to restore pages, as he can view the deleted pages himself.
invite people for improvement
- Who? The Dutch community already discussed the pages and requested deletion for them because they do not consider them viable for improvement. The pages viable for improvements have not been deleted, but are on a list of courses/pages to be improved. Don't expect that the Dutch community want to work on or re-adopt the deleted pages, they are deleted for several reasons.
I don't like deletions at all, so far I know none of the Dutch community likes deleting the pages. But we weighted our uncomfortable feeling with solving the issues. We are sad that we had to delete the pages, but the issues were considered to be too worse to leave it as it was.

Romaine (talk) 03:15, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Having deleted almost the entire Dutch Wikiversity, Romaine will perhaps now blame the lack of new content creation on me, because of an alleged "threat that has as aim to restore all the pages that were deleted on community request." That is completely preposterous, and shows that Romaine has no understanding of what has been proposed, nor has he read the repeated statement of mine that most pages should stay deleted, as to being in the Dutch Wikiversity, particularly in mainspace. (I've suggested that the Dutch Wikiversity categories be removed, they do not need to be there for the study.)
I've requested that all the deleted pages be restored, not to the "Dutch Wikiversity," and not at all because they should stay undeleted, but so that a study may be made of them in my user space. There are many purposes to this study, such as documenting what not to do in creating Wikiversity pages. Timboliu is not the first to create many stubs.
Romaine claims to not "like deletions at all," but there are many alternatives to deletion, and, as well, a user can be engaged in and agree to deletion, we see that all the time, and it seems that Timboliu did actually agree to most deletions. Not all. I do assume that most of the pages, once documented, will again be deleted, and that will be easily done by bot. I notice that at least one page was already rescued by a Dutch user.
As to my history on the English Wikipedia, which has nothing to do with the issue here, I could write much, but won't. Suffice it to say that I know my way around a wiki, including that one. A sysop who disagreed lost his bit over that. That former sysop had a favorite saying I liked: you are teaching your grandmother to suck eggs.

I don't edit Wikipedia because I don't want to. Waste of time. Why should I when I can create educational resources on Wikiversity, and help others to do the same, without conflict, with routine collaboration, and everyone learns? --Abd (talk) 04:06, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

"Having deleted almost the entire Dutch Wikiversity" -> that is not true, all materials that are considered usable for educational purposes still are visible for everyone. Only those pages with no content, no useful content, copyright violations, etc were deleted on request of the Dutch community.
"Romaine will perhaps now blame the lack of new content creation on me" -> no, I blame you for being here with no constructive goals, but solely to be here to disrupt a community decision to delete pages, purely you saw a sad face from a user. Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough and should I define disrupt. Disrupting means that you give reactions/actions which show a large disrespect for the community process and have the aim to interfere with that. That is exactly what you are doing: you do not inform yourself properly, you make wrong assumptions, draw false conclusions, give personal attacks, disrespect the Dutch community, try to bypass the Dutch community, and you think to know better than anyone else, while you do not understand Dutch, haven't seen any of the deleted pages, haven't seen the discussions, haven't understand the discussions, haven't seen the guidelines, haven't understand the guidelines, and act like a troll. You are here to disrupt, that is the onliest conclusion I can draw based on your actions. And it is general known that such happens, people stay away because they don't like people who behave themselves like you do.
"That is completely preposterous, and shows that Romaine has no understanding of what has been proposed" -> I perfectly understand what you try to do, you think you try to help Timboliu, but you ignore Dutch community. You write here clearly you want to restore all the pages I have been deleted. The Dutch community already judged them, you want to judge them yourself, but you don't understand Dutch, do not understand the guidelines, so your proposal is irrational and preposterous. And I do think your reasoning that "you want to study" these pages is a fake one, as you can't understand Dutch.
"I've requested that all the deleted pages be restored, not to the "Dutch Wikiversity," and not at all because they should stay undeleted" -> There is no logical thinking in this. You say you want all pages to be undeleted, but you do expect that they will stay deleted. That is called bogus.
"There are many purposes to this study, such as documenting what not to do in creating Wikiversity pages." -> First of all, I do not believe you are actually here to study these pages. You "came here with prejudice after a desperate cry for help by Timboliu" as EvilFreD said, you want to help Timboliu, and you are not here to do actual research, that is only a mask you use. Your motivations are totally unbelievable.
"Romaine claims to not "like deletions at all," but there are many alternatives to deletion" -> Why do not propose them then? If you really are experienced, then you should have known that you can propose things. But instead, you ignore the Dutch community who decided to delete these pages, you don't communicate with them, to only try to bypass them and go over their heads. The Dutch community has discussed the situation and concluded that the onliest way to solve the issue is deletion when a page contains a series of problems.
"Not all. I do assume that most of the pages, once documented, will again be deleted, and that will be easily done by bot." -> You try to give the impression that your idea is an easy way, while it is not. An easy way is to download a dump at this page. Go through it on your own computer or something, without disturbing the situation on Beta Wikiversity. Romaine (talk) 15:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)