Wikiversity:IRC meeting:What is Wikiversity?/Log

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This section is intended to be a list of participants. Feel free to make links from your IRC nickname to your wiki userpage. The actual discussion is in the next section, below. A short summary is at Wikiversity:IRC meeting:What is Wikiversity?/Summary.

examples of how to make links for discussion participants:

3:55 PM: JWSurf: meeting in 5 minutes
3:57 PM: Zahos: !time
3:57 PM: wikiversilinky: Zahos: Los Angeles 02:57PM | Denver 03:57PM | Chicago 04:57PM | New York 05:57PM | London 10:57PM | Berlin 11:57PM || Tokyo 07:57AM | Sydney 09:57AM
3:57 PM: Zahos: What should I say?
3:58 PM: JWSurf: Zahos: just say why you wanted a meeting
3:58 PM: Zahos: ok
3:58 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: don't forget to ask if everybody agrees that we record this
3:59 PM: JWSurf:
3:59 PM: JWSurf: If you do not want your comments copied into public places, list your name at
4:00 PM: Zahos: !time
4:00 PM: wikiversilinky: Zahos: Los Angeles 03:00PM | Denver 04:00PM | Chicago 05:00PM | New York 06:00PM | London 11:00PM || Berlin 12:00AM | Tokyo 08:00AM | Sydney 10:00AM
4:00 PM: Karl1263: *MEETING*
4:00 PM: Zahos: 5 min or should we start?
4:01 PM: JWSurf: Zahos: I suggest that we start
4:01 PM: mikeu: when we start, should we take a moment to introduce ourselves?
4:02 PM: Sharayanan: alphabetical order XD ?
4:02 PM: Zahos: atglenn
4:02 PM: Zahos: Countrymike
4:02 PM: Zahos: cormaggio
4:03 PM: Zahos: We are calling the participants
4:03 PM: Zahos: Daan_ English Wikiversity and tried to set up a Dutch
4:03 PM: Zahos: Danny_B
4:03 PM: Zahos: darkcode
4:03 PM: Zahos: dcrochet is on french and be a interwikibot on english, deutch, italian, french and spain
4:03 PM: Zahos: Erkan_Yilmaz German + English WV
4:04 PM: Zahos: John|N
4:04 PM: Zahos: Juan_de_Vojnikov beta + Englis WV
4:04 PM: Zahos: JWSchmidt = JWSurf; English Wikiversity
4:05 PM: Michael_Reschke: German Wikiversity, only
4:05 PM: Zahos: londenp
4:05 PM: Zahos: beta
4:06 PM: Timo_M: German WV
4:06 PM: Zahos: maxwell
4:06 PM: KevinH German (trying to integrate myself in the Italian Wikiversità)
4:06 PM: Zahos: McCormack_
4:06 PM: Karl1263 is on french
4:06 PM: Zahos: Michael_Reschke
4:06 PM: Zahos: mikeu = mu301 at English Wikiversity
4:06 PM: Zahos: Platonides Spanish
4:06 PM: Sharayanan is a french Wikiversity and Wikipedia regular contributor
4:06 PM: Zahos: SB_Johnny
4:07 PM: Zahos: Sharayanan
4:07 PM: Zahos: Timo_M
4:07 PM: Zahos: and Zahos?
4:07 PM: cormaggio: is someone actually logging this by the way?
4:07 PM: JWSurf: JWSchmidt is logging


4:07 PM: JWSurf: JWSchmidt is logging
4:07 PM: Michael_Reschke: (this will be a very long meeting...)
4:07 PM: cormaggio: cool
4:07 PM: atglenn: I can save the discussion but on the agenda is publishing the logs.
4:07 PM: atglenn: (cormaggio)
4:07 PM: cormaggio: yes, let's get started :-)
4:07 PM: Zahos: ok
4:07 PM: Daan_: Michael, i think so as well.
4:08 PM: Zahos: So as you all know
4:08 PM: Karl1263: when start the meeting ? XD
4:08 PM: JWSurf: meeting is started, Zahos will now breifly introduce
4:08 PM: Zahos: One of the topics of this meeting
4:08 PM: Zahos: is the final approval of the Greek WV
4:09 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: and the other topics ?
4:09 PM: Zahos: Not now
4:09 PM: JWSurf: read agenda:
4:09 PM: Zahos: tell some introduction and then
4:09 PM: Michael_Reschke: ...well not interesting for us
4:09 PM: Michael_Reschke: ok I read the agenda
4:10 PM: atglenn: the agenda is in no particulr order so we should set an order
4:10 PM: atglenn: and also decide whether publishing logs of this conversation is ok
4:10 PM: Sharayanan: Zahos: how many of us do read greek actually ?
4:10 PM: Michael_Reschke: situation on Wikiversity and Wikibooks; is Wikibooks for more than just textbooks? If so, how is Wikiversity different and do you need Wikiversity?
4:10 PM: Zahos: only me for the others is too late
4:10 PM: Zahos: and atglenn
4:10 PM: John|N: maybe put the topics in the topic for now and put old topics back afterwards? Would be better for overview.
4:10 PM: Michael_Reschke: this would be more interesting for me...
4:10 PM: Michael_Reschke: I'm not interested in Wikibooks - Wikiversity much,
4:10 PM: Sharayanan: Zahos: there's me too XD but only by the time of Archimedes
4:10 PM: JWSurf: "decide whether publishing logs of this conversation is ok" <-- if you object, list yourself at Wikiversity:IRC meeting:What is Wikiversity?
4:11 PM: Daan_: What does Wikibooks do?
4:11 PM: Michael_Reschke: the possibilities of Wikiversity and your experiences are much more interesting for me (for many I think)
4:11 PM: Zahos: Ok
4:11 PM: Daan_: I agree with the Greek Wikiversity: good work!
4:11 PM: John|N: Daan_: Textbooks
4:11 PM: Daan_: So, Wikiversity is something else, isn't it?
4:12 PM: Zahos: IS anybody here that doesn't agree in publishing log of this conversation?
4:12 PM: Daan_: I agree with it.
4:12 PM: Zahos: Noone
4:12 PM: John|N: Daan_: yes, rather a place for courses etc. like at an university
4:12 PM: Michael_Reschke: wikiversity was a part of Wikibooks, but is now an own project since some years / months... Wikiversities starts normaly as a part of Wikibooks
4:12 PM: John|N: log is alright with me
4:12 PM: Timo_M: Danny_B: It's more interactive...
4:12 PM: Michael_Reschke: not like an university... but no books
4:12 PM: Zahos: SO let's continue
4:12 PM: Zahos: with the next topic
4:12 PM: cormaggio: not any more necessarily (WV starting in WB)
4:12 PM: Zahos: We have already continued :-)
4:12 PM: Michael_Reschke: I think Cormaggio had an good definition on his papers...
4:13 PM: cormaggio: papers?
4:13 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: hi Histo
4:13 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Erkan_Yilmaz: Heya
4:13 PM: John|N: hey HistoryOnTheRoad
4:13 PM: Michael_Reschke: Wikiversity is for learning materials (not books) and to organize learning processes...
4:13 PM: Zahos: Guys I don't think that wv has the problem
4:13 PM: Zahos: wb have the problem
4:13 PM: Daan_: Organizing learning processes is definitely something different from Wikibooks.
4:13 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Well, there is a perception issue
4:13 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: depends on point of view where you stand
4:13 PM: Michael_Reschke: I hope my English is not too rusted... feel free to correct me
4:13 PM: McCormack_: Is that the entire Cormaggio-definition, or is there more?
4:13 PM: cormaggio: hmm, hold on Zahos
4:13 PM: John|N: Zahos: which problem?
4:14 PM: JWSurf: a small Wikibooks website might not want to split off a Wikiversity in that language
4:14 PM: Zahos: They do not write only books
4:14 PM: cormaggio: no McCormack, there's more
4:14 PM: Juan de Vojníkov JWS: why?
4:14 PM: Zahos: they do our work as well
4:14 PM: McCormack_: Cormaggio: Can you quote, or URL?
4:14 PM: cormaggio: the rationale for splitting Wikiversity from wikibooks was 1) learnign activities and 2) original research
4:14 PM: Daan_: Zahos, like what?
4:14 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Zahos: partly
4:14 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: I'd like to thank cormaggio for clarifying the issue which seems to be snagging the Greek WV's creation on the WV-l list
4:14 PM: Michael_Reschke: @Cormaggio I read this afternoon your biography and your "flyer" (?)
4:14 PM: JWSurf: a small Wikibooks website might not want to split off a Wikiversity in that language if they feel they can do it all at their Wikibooks website
4:14 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Juan_de_Vojnikov - splitting forces already in a small wiki does not make much sense
4:15 PM: Sharayanan: just for knowledge's sake, can you just remind us what is done on the English WV ?
4:15 PM: cormaggio: cool Michael_Reschke :-)
4:15 PM: Wikizine_g: for example, Euclid's elements is a finished book; however, the learning of euclidean geometry has no end
4:15 PM: Sharayanan: i mean, the french one is quite different
4:15 PM: Juan de Vojníkov JWS: thats misunderstanding of wv work, of what we do
4:15 PM: John|N: Zahos: problem is it's not just books, but textbooks - it's hard to draw the line therefore, where wikibooks start and wikiversity begins
4:15 PM: Michael_Reschke: "Wikiversity - a complex space for collaborative learning"... I think the definition their is the definition of most of our projects
4:15 PM: JWSurf: devil's advocate: you could do all of Wikimedia in one website
4:15 PM: Zahos: Guys
4:15 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Erkan:of course, but we are free and thats not a reason
4:16 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: when SUL comes :-)
4:16 PM: dcrochet: the frechn wikiversity is 95 % learning activities, and 5 % original resarch (but what is an original resaerch ?)
4:16 PM: Zahos: We do research wb not
4:16 PM: Daan_: JWSurf, no because some activities are not tolerated at the same place.
4:16 PM: Sharayanan: what wb does ignore is actual teaching
4:16 PM: Zahos: we give learning materials wb just textbook
4:16 PM: Daan_: There is the issue of law and practise. Wikipedia wants to be an encyclopedia.
4:16 PM: Countrymike: original research is what seperates WV from most of the othe WM projects...
4:16 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: JWS: True enough ... you could do the whole web in one website, though.
4:16 PM: JWSurf: Some Wikibooks websites might define their mission to include what other Wikibooks in other languages do not allow
4:17 PM: cormaggio: Countrymike, yes, although Wikinews does OR too...
4:17 PM: Daan_: Funny.
4:17 PM: John|N: Zahos: i believe textbooks do give some learning materials as well
4:17 PM: Countrymike: cormaggio: yes. Wikinews makes sense...
4:17 PM: Zahos: NOt so many as in wv
4:17 PM: cormaggio: yes, it's true that Wikiversity and Wikibooks overlap to some extent
4:17 PM: Zahos: And this is not their purpose
4:17 PM: darkcode: Wikiversity and Wikibooks may have some overlap just as Wikibooks and Wikisource do
4:17 PM: Wikizine_g: a book-writing project has a definite goal, independent of the participants
4:17 PM: Countrymike: I think that that is a point that WV should articulate and express more than it does.
4:17 PM: John|N: Zahos: yeah, but where to drwa the line?
4:17 PM: John|N: *draw
4:18 PM: Zahos: on research
4:18 PM: Wikizine_g: a learning project depends entirely on the partcipants
4:18 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio: doesnt agree
4:18 PM: Daan_: For me the quality of knowledge is more important than how it is organized.
4:18 PM: John|N: Zahos: sounds ok
4:18 PM: Zahos: and that we are a university not a liberary
4:18 PM: atglenn: darkcode: wikibooks and wikisource are not supposed to overlap; one is supposed to be for books that don't get collaboratively edited (wikisource)...
4:18 PM: Sharayanan: Zahos: +1
4:18 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Cormaggio: we can do textbooks and place them on wikisource, thats right
4:18 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: To me, WikiBooks is more a means to an end, and the end is a collection of wikipages that resemble a book. Wikiversity exists not to just create books, but to facilitate learning. And that can be done on and off wiki, although we always try to tie wikipates into learning projects.
4:19 PM: Countrymike: HistoryOnTheRoad: totally agree.
4:19 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: hi Draicone
4:19 PM: darkcode: wikibooks and wikisource overlap in writing annotated texts about existing books
4:19 PM: John|N: hy Draicone, full ack HistoryOnTheRoad
4:19 PM: Countrymike: have never really understood the debate to tell the truth.
4:19 PM: dcrochet: HistoryOnTheRoad: i'm aggree with you
4:19 PM: Daan_: HOTR, we can read books from the library and don't need to create them.
4:19 PM: Zahos: Right histo
4:19 PM: Zahos: ry of the road
4:19 PM: Draicone: Hi Erkan_Yilmaz
4:19 PM: Draicone: Have I missed the IRC meeting?
4:19 PM: Michael_Reschke: wikibooks and wikisource overlap in writing annotated texts about existing books - I know this from the German Wikiversity
4:19 PM: Sharayanan: there are collision between projects, the problem here is that there are colliding *aims*
4:19 PM: John|N: Draicone: jhust in ;)
4:19 PM: Karl1263: Draicone : it's nw ;)
4:19 PM: Michael_Reschke: we tried to make some translations of texts, hosted on Wikisource
4:19 PM: Draicone: :)
4:19 PM: Zahos: Guys
4:20 PM: Zahos: The topic is not ws wb
4:20 PM: Zahos: but wv wb
4:20 PM: atglenn: Daan_: only one person can get one of those books out of the library at once...
4:20 PM: Zahos: :-)
4:20 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Zahos: of course
4:20 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Daan_: It's not just books .... it can be any type of learning material. Video, voice, URL's ... most of the WMF sites are focused on text (with a bit of audio and video sprinkled here and there)
4:20 PM: Michael_Reschke: look here!
4:20 PM: Michael_Reschke:ürzburg:_Der_Welt_Lohn
4:20 PM: Daan_: Well, i got multiple libraries in the neighbourhood, in the Hague, Rotterdam etc.
4:20 PM: Michael_Reschke: and look at our great drop-down menu
4:21 PM: Michael_Reschke: the text is here:
4:21 PM: atglenn: and many people have access to one (or none)...
4:21 PM: Daan_: Michael, do they use existing books or not?
4:21 PM: Sharayanan: Michael_Reschke: nice, but is it really that useful
4:21 PM: darkcode: just using the WB/WS case for how overlap between WB/WV is not necessarily a problem
4:21 PM: Zahos: Guys have we decided about this topic?
4:21 PM: Zahos: Where is the differebce
4:21 PM: Daan_: If an amateur writes a book, does it add up to a book written by a couple of professors of a university.
4:22 PM: Zahos: I say on research
4:22 PM: McCormack_: The difficulty of distinguishing WV and other WM projects is that at the tertiary level, learning tends to devolve into reading, when done badly. In primary and secondary schools, the difference between what WV can do and what the other WM projects do is more marked - i.e. learning is very much further away from reading.
4:22 PM: McCormack_: I think...
4:22 PM: Draicone: Daan_: If the quality is the same, yes. It's just very rare.
4:22 PM: atglenn: Daan_: if many amateurs collaborate on a book drawing on other expert resources, why not?
4:22 PM: Daan_: That is true.
4:22 PM: Zahos: Their quality has a difference I agree
4:22 PM: Daan_: But that is Wikipedia.
4:23 PM: atglenn: no, wikipedia is not books... only encyclopedic articles
4:23 PM: Countrymike: is there anyone here who is active on Wikibooks anyways?
4:23 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: good question
4:23 PM: John|N: me
4:23 PM: atglenn: I have been
4:23 PM: londenp: Wikibooks is hosting content, as is Wikipedia. Wikiversity is about learning, hosting learning programs. As long as Wikiversity is hosting content like Wikibooks there is too muh overlap
4:23 PM: John|N: german wikibooks
4:23 PM: Countrymike: John|N: what have you participated in mostly? i mean what kind of book?
4:23 PM: cormaggio: for me, part of the problem in Wikiversity is people creating textbook-like material - this should clearly be on Wikibooks (though pages can be moved between projects so it's not really a big deal - the problem is how people conceptualise what a learning resource is..)
4:23 PM: londenp: I am WB in Dutch, we have no WV yet
4:23 PM: McCormack_: Both books and articles are about "reading". Learning is more than reading.
4:23 PM: Countrymike: londenp: ok.
4:23 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: londenp: but some material might not be finished for WB yet and can evolve here and when finished be transfered to WB
4:23 PM: Draicone: londenp: And at this rate wikiversity won't be hosting a lot of its learning content either.
4:23 PM: darkcode: I would say original research, interactive learning, quizzes, lesson plans, a more flexible NPOV are some of the differences that WV has with WB
4:24 PM: John|N: history
4:24 PM: Draicone: Erkan_Yilmaz: Does that make wv the wb sandbox?
4:24 PM: darkcode: yes I'm active on Wikibooks
4:24 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, why not ? we give them more freedom than other Wm projects
4:24 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: here not everything is immediately deleted
4:24 PM: Daan_: I agree with erkan.
4:24 PM: Countrymike: John|N: so is your primary concern learning activities or just producing a good text.?
4:24 PM: Zahos: me too
4:24 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: with testing (trial and error) people can start learning - learning is individual
4:25 PM: John|N: I would say that wikiversity is on another level than wb, ws, wp and so on
4:25 PM: Draicone: But learning can be assisted
4:25 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: I agree to McCormack_
4:25 PM: cormaggio: Wikiversity has definitely adopted a much more tolerant and flexible structure - explicitly to encourage the development of learning projects and processes
4:25 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: but unfortunately not all WVs encourage this :-(
4:25 PM: Countrymike: "tolerant and flexible" .. thats one way to put it :-)
4:25 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: some still think in the old rigid way of WP and WB
4:25 PM: Draicone: Then why do we have those other wvs?
4:25 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Erkan: right
4:25 PM: cormaggio: Erkan-Yilmaz - could you elaborate more?
4:25 PM: londenp: Erkan_Yilmaz: why would you develop content on WV what could not be done on WB? WV should focus on teaching, helping people to study.
4:25 PM: darkcode: learning projects require texts and other types of media to aid in the learning
4:26 PM: Draicone: We can't have each individual wv reinventing the wheel with regard to how to how they handle learning and focus their efforts.
4:26 PM: Sharayanan: Draicone: why ?
4:26 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: I know e.g. that when I came from de.Wv to en.Wv I saw that en.Wv was more freer and did tolerate more content - did not delete immediately
4:26 PM: McCormack_: Learning is more than texts and media - it's also methodology. The event which surrounds the word.
4:26 PM: John|N: Countrymike: we try to write books useful for learning - not just any books. therefore most books concern learning activities as well. like text books in school. they do as well, I would say
4:26 PM: cormaggio: londenp - are you saying that WV should have no content?
4:26 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: see e.g. also John's blog about vandalism learning project
4:26 PM: Countrymike: John|N: ok.
4:26 PM: Daan_: A solution: linking to books on Wikibooks. Just letting Wikiversity and Wikibooks overlap in some ways.
4:27 PM: Draicone: Sharayanan: Because integration between the languages is an important factor in WMF wikis. Often we translate high quality content between wikis.
4:27 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: deletion can be done always (and can even restored anyway)
4:27 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: or the Garbage detail project
4:27 PM: Juan de Vojníkov yes en.wv is quite open and that is nice
4:27 PM: Countrymike: John|N: there seems to me no reason why learning activities shouldn't be part of a text-book...
4:27 PM: darkcode: lesson plans, exams/quizzes, essays don't belong on WB
4:27 PM: John|N: McCormack_: I would believe wv is the method, the res (wb, ws etc.) the material
4:27 PM: Sharayanan: Draicone: it may be cruel, but it is hard to find « quality content » on WV-en ...
4:27 PM: Countrymike: darkcode: why not?
4:27 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Wikiversity:Wikimedia Garbage Detail
4:27 PM: wikiversilinky:
4:27 PM: londenp: carmaggio: indeed. but it should have learning programs, linking (is possibile including) from other WM projects and even outside that (java applets, external links to video etc)
4:28 PM: darkcode: they aren't books
4:28 PM: Juan de Vojníkov of course, wv needs its freedom
4:28 PM: dcrochet: Wikiversity must devellop a systeme of acqusition of knowlege, with a support that come from some page of wikibooks, but in wikiversity, we don't make a books, but a system of echange of knowlege.
4:28 PM: McCormack_: John|N: so you would separate method and material?
4:28 PM: Countrymike: darkcode: one could argue that quizzes don't belong in WV either.
4:28 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: User:JWSchmidt/Blog/14 October 2007
4:28 PM: wikiversilinky:
4:28 PM: Draicone: Sharayanan: Maybe so, but we're getting there, and when we do we want to be able to make sure the other wvs can make use of it
4:28 PM: Daan_: Sharayanan, you are right. The quality is out of the internet mostly.
4:28 PM: Countrymike: darkcode: what do quizzes have to do with learning?
4:28 PM: John|N: McCormack_: seperated it is I would say
4:28 PM: Karl1263: + 1
4:28 PM: Countrymike: darkcode: they're assessment tools mostly.
4:28 PM: darkcode: they teach your knowledge and help you figure out where you need to improve your understanding
4:28 PM: Daan_: Draicone, it is hard to overtake centuries of experience.
4:28 PM: Juan de Vojníkov dcrochet: if well need books with original research we should develop them
4:28 PM: Daan_: Internet has to invent everything still.
4:28 PM: Countrymike: darkcode: um... the mostly teach you how to take quizzes.
4:29 PM: darkcode: err they test your knowledge
4:29 PM: Daan_: So, why not use the methods and sources of the old media?
4:29 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Sharayanan: Just because there isn't quality content in the majority on one WV doesn't mean there isn't any -- or that there won't be.
4:29 PM: Juan de Vojníkov drochet: as stated JWS wb will need to agree OR too
4:29 PM: Sharayanan: HistoryOnTheRoad: i never said that
4:29 PM: Sharayanan: there is quality content
4:29 PM: John|N: McCormack_: I believe the good things are the links, which we are able to use perfectly in the internet - linking Material and Method
4:29 PM: Sharayanan: it is just hard to find
4:30 PM: cormaggio: Can I propose that we acknowledge that Wikiversity and wikibooks will always overlap - what we are trying to figure out is a way for both to exist side by side, and to provide a rationale for different language communities to create a new wikiversity, or whether a wikibooks is enough...
4:30 PM: Countrymike: John|N: I agree... its about using the tool to network information. materials, and methods.
4:30 PM: Daan_: londenp, i can't open your private conversation. To little knowledge of this chatbox.
4:30 PM: John|N: yes, and I think therefore it must overlap
4:30 PM: McCormack_: I agree with Cormaggio that overlaps shouldn't bother us.
4:30 PM: Juan de Vojníkov drochet: of course , it is difficult to talk, about something you dont kno (me dont know)
4:30 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Sharayanan: Nod ... there is a lot of issues with navigation ... but we are also trying to learn how to correct these as we progress
4:30 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Daan_ you must be registered to private chat
4:30 PM: Countrymike: cormaggio: i agree.
4:31 PM: Countrymike: and i find little point in us having to forever debate this awfully artificial dialectic.
4:31 PM: cormaggio: yup :-)
4:31 PM: Michael_Reschke: a wikibooks is enough for small communities... (= small countries)
4:31 PM: londenp: Just wanted to know if you are active on Dutch projects
4:31 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: cormaggio: Are we talking about the EL situation, or any new language WV at all?
4:31 PM: Zahos: it is not only about EL
4:31 PM: Zahos: but generally for all the Wikiversity
4:31 PM: cormaggio: any language - it's clear that some communities are nervous about splitting resources (eg Dutch)
4:32 PM: Daan_: Well, i started one on my own. (londenp) But there was no other Dutch person yet.
4:32 PM: Sharayanan: Michael_Reschke: how is France, compared to the US ? small enough ?
4:32 PM: Timo_M: Michael_Reschke: A community does not belong to a country...
4:32 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio: I think you are making a problem which doesnt exist. there couldnt be any overlap if we disscus a line within both projects
4:32 PM: Daan_: I will try to log into the private channell.
4:32 PM: darkcode: in general I think a wikibooks or wikiversity project should only be started if there are people who want to write books or write more then books, with different participants to begin with
4:32 PM: cormaggio: Juan - I think that is naiive
4:32 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Well, I joined after the EN WV made the split from WB, but reading back on the discussions at split time... the big issue was whether that would "fragment" the community
4:32 PM: Juan de Vojníkov line of understanding what we do, and what they do
4:32 PM: londenp: If you do not totally seperate WV and WB, then the thing one could consider is transwiki teaching material (bookes) from WB to WV and keep WB for non WV scope books
4:33 PM: Michael_Reschke: when Wikiversity is running... pupils and teachers use it enthusiastically, then splitting is overdue - even at the Dutch...
4:33 PM: cormaggio: or more exactly - I think that the more you look into the matter, the more the line gets blurred
4:33 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: And I don't think it has in the EN case ... different people have different approaches to things ... some are interested in WB, some in WV, and some in both
4:33 PM: Michael_Reschke: @Timo M: You are right, our borders are borders of language
4:34 PM: Daan_: londenp, Ik ben er.
4:34 PM: Zahos: ok guys
4:34 PM: Zahos: That is enough
4:34 PM: Zahos: we have not enough time
4:34 PM: Michael_Reschke: German Wikiversity: I would believe four hard working guys and two, three teachers / profs with their courses... enough to run a Wikiversity, not enough for take-off
4:34 PM: Zahos: Let's get in the next topic
4:34 PM: John|N: we can't draw exact lines and use all projects flexibly to create a way to learn via wikiversity
4:34 PM: darkcode: that's basically it, WB and WV have different approaches with similar aims
4:34 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio: well I ment to explain scope or both project to the participants. Probably I am stupid, by I dont unerstand were we overlap - sorry.
4:34 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: why ? is there a time constraint ? ;-)
4:35 PM: John|N: seems so...
4:35 PM: cormaggio: Juan_de-Vojnikov - this is a long line of conversation - it would be better on-wiki :-)
4:35 PM: Sharayanan: well it's quite late in Europe
4:35 PM: Zahos: if the meeting is going to last an hour yes
4:35 PM: atglenn: actally let's check in: do people want to contine talking aobut this, or move on?
4:35 PM: cormaggio: i agree that it might be better to agree on general points
4:35 PM: atglenn: and, how long can people stay?
4:36 PM: Karl1263: move on
4:36 PM: John|N: someone with much free time on his/her hands could extract the main points and start a discussion on wiki
4:36 PM: Karl1263: not too late please
4:36 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: I have drunk now coffee, if you hurry away, I will find you all :-)
4:36 PM: Karl1263: I have to sleep XD
4:36 PM: John|N: i think this might take longer than one night...
4:36 PM: cormaggio: yes :-)
4:36 PM: Zahos: so
4:36 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio: pl.wb also told be they dont know to have pl.wv, but I think this springs from their misunderstanding of a wv
4:36 PM: Sharayanan: go on, the subjecti s not going to be over tonight
4:36 PM: Countrymike: its taken a year and half so far...
4:36 PM: Zahos: next topic
4:36 PM: dcrochet: Remark : hum, I think that we need to set an end-time of the meeting, because someone need to sleep !
4:36 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio: anyway - OK
4:37 PM: Zahos: * Greek Wikiversity: "conditionally approved" but is now held up (see also)
4:37 PM: Zahos: * possible solutions:
4:37 PM: Zahos: 1. Maybe this meeting can count as a way to show that, "the Wikiversity people themselves indicate that it is a good idea that a new language version of their project is started".
4:37 PM: Zahos: 2. If matter continues to stall with the languages subcommittee, it might be an idea to raise the issue on Foundation-l and/or with the Board of Trustees.
4:37 PM: cormaggio: Juan - yes, point taken, this is a continuing discussion... :-)
4:37 PM: Zahos: Ok so
4:37 PM: Countrymike: anyone here from this nascent Greek WV movement?
4:37 PM: Zahos: do we all agree on the final approval of greek wv?
4:37 PM: cormaggio: I think we should briefly discuss point 1 from Zahos
4:37 PM: Zahos: Me
4:37 PM: londenp: I agree with the post from Cormac en Erik: the language committee has nothing to say about this
4:37 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: I am regular visitor of el.Wv and also know the members
4:38 PM: cormaggio: and yes to londenp :-)
4:38 PM: Countrymike: well, perhaps we should hear a bit from Zahos on why this is a good idea....
4:38 PM: Zahos: ok
4:38 PM: Zahos: Well guys
4:38 PM: Countrymike: type away...
4:38 PM: Zahos: We have been proposed to take final approval
4:38 PM: Zahos: we haven't yet teken it
4:38 PM: Zahos: they told us
4:38 PM: Zahos: that
4:39 PM: Zahos: there si nothing to do about us but generally
4:39 PM: Sharayanan: Zahos: can you explain a bit more ?
4:39 PM: dcrochet: londenp: yes, I think that with a staff about 5-6 active "body", a project can live ?
4:39 PM: Zahos: that a member of the commitee doesn't know if a new language in this projecty would be positive
4:40 PM: Daan_: Why not?

Background email[edit]

4:40 PM: cormaggio: I've posted context at:
4:40 PM: Zahos: and that this member wants from the existing wvs to explain the difference of wv and wb
4:40 PM: John|N: i wonder why it should be a bad idea? if it isn't working one can stil shut it down, can't one?
4:40 PM: Juan de Vojníkov well, thats not his problem, he might ask on Foundation or Meta, but not block el
4:40 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: John|N - indeed
4:40 PM: Juan de Vojníkov our prob
4:40 PM: Karl1263: + 1
4:41 PM: dcrochet: Zahos: i explain the object and the aim of the french wikiversity
4:41 PM: Sharayanan: the point is, if you block el, it won't develop
4:41 PM: Juan de Vojníkov I think this memeber should run a separate proces to this
4:41 PM: Juan de Vojníkov separate proces from el.approval
4:41 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: if you block one, then others might also get blocked because of "some" reason
4:41 PM: Zahos: object to what?
4:42 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Erkan: right
4:42 PM: londenp: If language committee stalls take it to the next level and by the way clear jurisdiction of the language committee in the same process
4:42 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: as John|N told let it proceed and judge after x months

Stalled launch of the Greek Wikiversity[edit]

4:42 PM: cormaggio: hmm, ok, this is possibly being taken to the extreme - there are *no* grounds for Greek Wikiversity to be stalled (if it is shown to have a viable community)
4:42 PM: dcrochet: Zahos: the aim used in the french wikiversity to be separeted with the WB prject and to "prouver" that a wikiversity can be A project
4:43 PM: Sharayanan: dcrochet: demonstrate/proof
4:43 PM: Zahos: our wikibooks is a very poor project
4:43 PM: cormaggio: Zahos, that shouldn't matter
4:43 PM: Zahos: ok
4:43 PM: Juan de Vojníkov what about complaint on a work of this subcomitee
4:43 PM: Juan de Vojníkov ?
4:43 PM: dcrochet: Zahos:
4:44 PM: cormaggio: this is about whether there are sufficient peopel to make a good community for el.wv
4:44 PM: cormaggio: Juan - I'm on it already :-)
4:44 PM: Zahos: Ok guys
4:44 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio. ok:-)
4:44 PM: Zahos: In my opinion
4:44 PM: atglenn: well, it should be, cormaggio, but what it seems to be for at least one person on the committee is a general concern about whether new wv projects ought to be started at all
4:45 PM: Zahos: we should complain about the fact that el. is blocked

Waiting for reply from the Languages Committee[edit]

4:45 PM: cormaggio: I am waiting for a response - if nothing, I will take it to the board - I'm pretty confident the board will agree with me
4:45 PM: John|N: is that user probably in the chat somewhere?
4:45 PM: Zahos: from a member
4:45 PM: Zahos: no
4:45 PM: Zahos: he couldn't take part
4:45 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: John|N he was: 2 days ago :-)
4:45 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio, but it would be better to have complaint from someone indifferent
4:45 PM: John|N: ok
4:46 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: so, probably some members here would sign their commitment to open el.WV ?
4:46 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio, if they agree, than its fine
4:46 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: thsi can also be shown to the committee
4:46 PM: cormaggio: Juan - no, I think I can present this fairly
4:46 PM: Juan de Vojníkov ok
4:46 PM: Zahos: ok
4:47 PM: Zahos: guys that agree with the final approval of greek wikiversity
4:47 PM: cormaggio: atglenn, as i've said to the committee, this is nothing to do with their mandate
4:47 PM: Zahos: tell it
4:47 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: support of opening el.WV
4:47 PM: Zahos: So many?
4:47 PM: Zahos: ah
4:47 PM: Sharayanan: Zahos: i support the idea, but i can't tell whether th content of the el project is good enough...
4:47 PM: atglenn: no, it doesnt cormaggio, but that is what we are dealing with. as long as someone on the committee holds that view, he can attempt to block it and all other subsequent projects.
4:47 PM: John|N: me for both
4:48 PM: Zahos: me too :-)
4:48 PM: cormaggio: Zahos, i think we should ask another question - does anyone see any reason for not starting a wikiversity in any particular context?
4:48 PM: John|N: Surprise, Surprise ;p
4:48 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: btw: el means Greek
4:48 PM: atglenn: Sharayanan: I think the call wasn't specifically supposed to be about evaluating the greek wv project (its content, number of users, etc), but rather...
4:48 PM: KevinH: Me too
4:48 PM: atglenn: whether it is appropriate at this point in time for other wv projects to be created *at all*... in any language.
4:48 PM: Sharayanan: well, in general, i do agree
4:49 PM: cormaggio: atglenn - yes, but there are higher authorities than the committee (ie board)
4:49 PM: Zahos: guys let's take it in an other way
4:49 PM: Zahos: Who disagrees?
4:49 PM: atglenn: if people feel that wv is still struggling to find its identity,and tha'ts the shared feeling of folks here, then this would not be such a good time... if on the other hand...
4:49 PM: dcrochet: With what I see in béta, I think that the EL.WV can be "independant", but need more people to make it live alone
4:49 PM: atglenn: people have a different outlook... well, that is part of what might come out of this discussion.
4:49 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: atglenn: That's how I read the user's talk page too
4:49 PM: John|N: atglenn: I believe not every Greek person for example speeks english, so greek useres would much rather be attracted to a greek wv
4:50 PM: Zahos: dcrochet: many people told me that when we open they will participate
4:50 PM: McCormack_: I agree that the identity problem is something that needs addressing. Lack of identity makes us weak.
4:50 PM: dcrochet: Zahos: yes, but after 2 months ?
4:50 PM: Sharayanan: McCormack_: not every WV lacks « identity »
4:50 PM: Juan de Vojníkov we cant judge el.wv, but we can support it aginst this block from the subcomitte. If the subcomitee agreed one time, thay should give you rights
4:51 PM: McCormack_: Sharayanan: Sorry - I'm being anglocentric ;-)
4:51 PM: atglenn: cormaggio: I would like some ideas on that but perhaps off-channel (or at least not here just yet)
4:51 PM: cormaggio: Sharayanan - such confidence :-)
4:51 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: identity = whose members are recognized from the outside as such members and they see themselves as members
4:51 PM: atglenn: John|N: that goes without saying
4:51 PM: McCormack_: Identity = we know what we are doing.
4:51 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: that's one possible definition
4:51 PM: dcrochet: Zahos: I say it, my only contributions in el.wv will be my bot, and a bot not create, it use already pages created
4:51 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: if someone would tell me this and that WV lacks identity then I would ask him/her how long did he participate in that wiki project
4:51 PM: dcrochet: *it use only pages created
4:52 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: outsiders normally don't see in the begin all structures, the culture
4:52 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: perhaps wikis must learn to do better marketing ?

Can more support be demonstrated?[edit]

4:52 PM: cormaggio: atglenn, I'm happy to deal with it for now - meantime, the greek community needs to express that there are *this number of interested people, gagging to get going* ;-)
4:52 PM: McCormack_: Outsiders must be able to see the identity easily.
4:52 PM: Sharayanan: cormaggio is probably right
4:52 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Erkan: ufff, but yes
4:52 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: McCormack_ yes and that is the problem
4:52 PM: Sharayanan: McCormack_: this requires an important community
4:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: e.g. in de.Wv we also have from time to time questions how does Wb and Wv differentiate
4:53 PM: Zahos: Guys could anyone send me the discussion from
4:53 PM: Zahos: ,Zahos>dcrochet: many people told me that when we open they will participate
4:53 PM: Zahos: <McCormack_>I agree that the identity problem is something that needs addressing. Lack of identity makes us weak.
4:53 PM: dcrochet: Zahos: yes, but after 2 months ?
4:53 PM: dcrochet: Zahos: I say it, my only contributions in el.wv will be my bot, and a bot not create, it use already pages created
4:53 PM: dcrochet: *it use only pages created
4:53 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Erkan: seems to me like unreal
4:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Juan_de_Vojnikov what again ? the difference between Wb + WV ?
4:54 PM: Sharayanan: oh guys, please ! we went on a quarter hour ago XD
4:54 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: cormaggio: Does the Language subcommittee actually have the authority to sit on minting new wikis like this?
4:54 PM: Karl1263: XD
4:54 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz slaps Sharayanan so he gets awake again :-)
4:54 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: It seems a bit arbitrary, when I read the rational and all.
4:54 PM: Daan_: Shall we do the list of people again? :-)
4:54 PM: cormaggio: HOTR - only to assess their viability as a *community* (and whether the language is non-problematic)
4:54 PM: Zahos: Guys
4:54 PM: Zahos: It is very simple
4:55 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Juan_de_Vojnikov is back :-)
4:55 PM: Zahos: now we are about 5 very active users
4:55 PM: John|N: the identy requires that people from other wikiprojekts and elsewhere need wikiversity (much), otherwise they won't bother to look what it is and tend to discard it as unnecassary
4:55 PM: McCormack_: And what is your sense of purpose as 5 very active users?
4:55 PM: Zahos: but many users -don't rememmber exactly- said to me that the y will surely paricipate when we open
4:55 PM: McCormack_: How exactly do you conceive of your project?
4:55 PM: Sharayanan: Zahos: the WV-fr has a dozen (very)active contributors, and is still getting writers from the other sister projects
4:55 PM: Juan de Vojníkov John: interesting point
4:55 PM: cormaggio: Zahos - do you have a list somewhere?
4:56 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Zahos: if your users are dynamic enough, 5 can do a lot.
4:56 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: John|N I guess they are attracted by the name which includes analogy to university, but WV is more than that
4:56 PM: Zahos: Guys
4:56 PM: Zahos: Who knows beta?
4:56 PM: Daan_: five is enough.
4:56 PM: Sharayanan: i do
4:56 PM: Karl1263: I do
4:56 PM: Zahos: How many people can sb from beta attract?
4:56 PM: McCormack_: Do the 5 very active users specialise in original research, for example?
4:56 PM: Sharayanan: i can't XD
4:56 PM: Zahos: From outside thew wv
4:56 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Wikiversity:School and university projects + Wikiversity:Pre-tertiary portal
4:56 PM: wikiversilinky:
4:56 PM: cormaggio: Zahos, you need a place for people to sign up to the project (for now or for the future) - otherwise it won't seem obviously viable to an outsider
4:56 PM: wikiversilinky:
4:57 PM: McCormack_: Or do the 5 active users specialising in cataloguing Greek learning materials?
4:57 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: cormaggio: Nod
4:57 PM: Zahos: Guys
4:57 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Zahos: Go ahead
4:57 PM: Zahos: in the list with the interested participants some people have signed
4:58 PM: londenp: I am off, it was nice. Lets expand a little more on WB and WV on discussion list
4:58 PM: Zahos: they didn't sign to be approved
4:58 PM: cormaggio: McCormack - i think your questions are too specific for the bureaucracy of setting up a project ;-)
4:58 PM: Zahos: they are interested in this project
4:58 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: bye londenp
4:58 PM: Zahos: they will participate
4:58 PM: McCormack_: OK ;-) Well, I was curious.
4:58 PM: cormaggio: :-)
4:58 PM: cormaggio: londenp - thanks :-)
4:59 PM: Sharayanan: would someone bother to re-read the whole thing and make a sum-up of what we said tonight ?
4:59 PM: Zahos: too big not me
4:59 PM: John|N: me neither
4:59 PM: Sharayanan: me neither XD
4:59 PM: Sharayanan: but at least the main points
4:59 PM: cormaggio: and yes, i agree that the WV and WB communities should collaborate on specific uses and scopes of the projects
4:59 PM: Daan_: I want to discuss the last point.
4:59 PM: Zahos: ok
4:59 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Zahos: I think that cormaggio is suggesting you get a list of people (5 is a good start) who clearly want a WV.el, so we can help you approach the committee to make it happen. (and if I'm wrong, he'll correct me) :)
4:59 PM: Zahos: Very good I think
5:00 PM: cormaggio: you need 10
5:00 PM: Daan_: What is the learning paradigm for Wikiversity? Are we supporting the traditional teacher-student model, the learn-by-doing model, or something else (or all of these)?
5:00 PM: John|N: at least
5:00 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Sharayanan - sum-up: I will do it then
5:00 PM: mikeu: all of these
5:00 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: thanks a lot, it's becoming hard to follow
5:00 PM: Zahos: I want sth from you to tell to me
5:00 PM: John|N: hello nx11
5:00 PM: Zahos: guys
5:00 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: hi nx11
5:01 PM: Zahos: From the other greek sisterprojects
5:01 PM: nx11: hi all! :)
5:01 PM: cormaggio: I agree with mikeu - and this is not acknowledged enough, IMO
5:01 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: cormaggio: "communities should collaborate" <-- all WMF communities _should_ :)
5:01 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Daan: I dont know
5:01 PM: atglenn: Daan_: I would like to hear what people are doing at the various wv projects around that issue
5:01 PM: Zahos: How many users do you think that know beta
5:01 PM: Zahos: ?
5:01 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Daan_: All of the above
5:01 PM: Sharayanan: Zahos: not enough
5:01 PM: Sharayanan: atglenn: good idea
5:01 PM: Daan_: My idea is that teacher-student only works if someone can really learn something to another person.
5:01 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: beta has 583 users
5:01 PM: Sundance_Raphael: oh sorry
5:01 PM: Zahos: and all these wvs were the same active as when the became separate projects?
5:02 PM: Daan_: Otherwise collaborative learning is better.
5:02 PM: John|N: Daan_: yes, full ack
5:02 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: hi Sundance_Raphael
5:02 PM: Sundance_Raphael: thx
5:02 PM: Daan_: Hi Sundance.
5:02 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Erkan: there is just one Betian
5:02 PM: Sundance_Raphael: the call of my sensai was suprising
5:02 PM: Zahos: That is what I tell you give us approval
5:02 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Daan: which wv, you are from?
5:02 PM: Zahos: we will attract people
5:03 PM: Zahos: if we will be inactive you can close us
5:03 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Juan_de_Vojnikov - Betian ?
5:03 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Daan_: Each person is different in their abilities and skills. Some have the ability to teach, others can do and others can absorb by observing. We have to keep aware of that
5:03 PM: Daan_: The English one, but i could start a Dutch version with londenp
5:03 PM: Sundance_Raphael: moin HistoryOnTheRoad
5:03 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Erkan: like Wikipedian. It is Altgentleman
5:03 PM: Draicone_A: !time
5:03 PM: Zahos: So let's go to the last topic
5:03 PM: wikiversilinky: Draicone_Away: Los Angeles 04:03PM | Denver 05:03PM | Chicago 06:03PM | New York 07:03PM || London 12:03AM | Berlin 01:03AM | Tokyo 09:03AM | Sydney 11:03AM
5:03 PM: John|N: HistoryOnTheRoad: but i think the real ability to teach is rather rare
5:03 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Juan_de_Vojnikov ok
5:04 PM: Zahos: that Daan_ wants to discuss
5:04 PM: cormaggio: Zahos - I hate to say it but saying "they will come" is just not enough for now - you need to show (ie name) the people who have said they will come - preferably get them to list themselves
5:04 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Sundance_Raphael: Heya :)
5:04 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Daan: I see, I thought, there was that pesimism coming from Dutch wv
5:04 PM: Daan_: Promoting structure would be good, like in meeting every week with a group in order to learn together.
5:04 PM: Juan de Vojníkov wb
5:04 PM: Sharayanan: 1h meeting and still no solution ahead - that's efficiency !
5:04 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Daan: sounds positive
5:04 PM: Zahos: ok
5:04 PM: John|N: hey Sundance_Raphael
5:04 PM: Sundance_Raphael: heya John|N and SB_Johnny
5:04 PM: cormaggio: Daan_ - I'd like to talk more about Dutch WV, but perhaps another time... :-)
5:05 PM: Daan_: Okay.
5:05 PM: Juan de Vojníkov the rules to judge a viability of new wv project are difficult, as wvies are not mature yet
5:05 PM: Zahos: cormaggio: But I don't think that this is right
5:05 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: John|N: no doubt ... some are gifted, some aren't. But some people can't learn some ways ... some learn best in a traditional setting, for instance.
5:05 PM: cormaggio: how not Zahos? This is the criteria for all new projects
5:05 PM: Zahos: Why does a wv need it and a wp does not?
5:05 PM: Draicone_A: Before we finish, can we discuss the sandbox server?
5:05 PM: Zahos: We show them on the request
5:05 PM: *** Draicone_Away is now known as Draicone
5:06 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Draicone: shoudl we, better next time
5:06 PM: John|N: HistoryOnTheRoad: yes, that's true
5:06 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: just background info: Wikiversity:Sandbox Server
5:06 PM: wikiversilinky:
5:06 PM: Sundance_Raphael: btw when is the next voip meeting?
5:06 PM: cormaggio: hmmm, do new WP's not need to show some interested participants?
5:06 PM: Zahos: no
5:06 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Zahos: Is your arguement that you should be allowed as an experiment to start WV.el?
5:06 PM: Zahos: they show them on the request
5:07 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Zahos: why?
5:07 PM: Zahos: Guys very simple
5:07 PM: Daan_: My opinion is that all major languages should get their own pages without question.
5:07 PM: cormaggio: what do you mean "they show them on the request", Zahos?
5:07 PM: Zahos: did the same thing happen to the italian wv?
5:07 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Zahos: depends from project to project
5:07 PM: Daan_: Or perhaps start on beta.
5:07 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Daan: nice idea, but...
5:07 PM: Zahos: We show them on the request
5:07 PM: Daan_: There are a lot of people who don't speak english, why exclude them?
5:08 PM: John|N: Daan_: indeed
5:08 PM: Sharayanan: Daan_: indeed, but the main point is not language
5:08 PM: Sharayanan: it is content
5:08 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Zahos: you can explain them how to support on meta
5:08 PM: cormaggio: Zahos, if I understand you - then i'm also saying that you need to show these interested members on the request page (on Meta). That's all I'm asking for
5:08 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Sundance_Raphael voip probably ask in Wiki Campus Radio or be present in #wikiversity-en :-)
5:08 PM: wikiversilinky:
5:08 PM: Daan_: So, it is about the use of Wikiversity?
5:09 PM: John|N: Sharayanan: but no content without a place to put it...
5:09 PM: Draicone_: Sorry, wireless died, did I miss anything in the past 5 minutes?
5:09 PM: Sharayanan: John|N: it includes potential content
5:09 PM: Sharayanan: John|N: most WV projects started on WB
5:09 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Draicone: depends, but you can reread it, nothing on the sandbox server
5:10 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Erkan: nice to hear, that SS is alive
5:10 PM: JWSurf: sandbox server was not on the agenda for this meeting....maybe that could be for the next meeting
5:10 PM: Daan_: Better use a different abreviation :-)
5:10 PM: Sharayanan: lol
5:10 PM: Juan de Vojníkov lol
5:11 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: how to abbreviate summer school ?
5:11 PM: Sharayanan: SumSc
5:11 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: ok :-)
5:11 PM: John|N: Sharayanan: ok, but i think one can asume, that greek wv has some potential content - giving the number of greeks (other than a bahamian wv)
5:11 PM: cormaggio: Draicone - we were mostly continuing discussion about process for new projects
5:11 PM: Juan de Vojníkov back to the main prob
5:11 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Unfortunately I have to get going.
5:11 PM: Sharayanan: John|N: the fact is, there are more chinese than greeks, yet there's no zh-WV ahead
5:11 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz wonders if he can convince histo to stay somehow :-)
5:12 PM: Daan_: The Chinese are limited on Wikipedia as well.
5:12 PM: McCormack_: Bye, everyone. I can't keep my eyes open any longer.
5:12 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: I do support EL having it's own site, and I do think Cormaggio has the right idea... draw up a list of 10 people who will sign their names that they want a site.
5:12 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: bye McCormack_
5:12 PM: John|N: McCormack_: gn8
5:12 PM: KevinH: Buona notte.
5:12 PM: Sharayanan: bonne nuit
5:12 PM: cormaggio: thansk McCormack :-)
5:12 PM: dcrochet: Sharayanan: bonne nuit
5:12 PM: Daan_: Slaap lekker.
5:12 PM: Sharayanan: dcrochet: not for me XD
5:12 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Then we can all lobby the committee (or the board) to create the site with the community support
5:12 PM: dcrochet: Sharayanan: heu ,excuse mi, j'ai mal lu$
5:13 PM: dcrochet: lol
5:13 PM: JWSurf: "draw up a list of 10 people who will sign their names that they want a site" <-- how does this differ from the process that has already been completed?
5:13 PM: John|N: gute nacht to say it in german ;)
5:13 PM: Sharayanan: dcrochet: toi par contre, tu fatigues XD
5:13 PM: dcrochet: oui
5:13 PM: dcrochet: j'arrive mêm plus à traduire ce qui est dit
5:13 PM: Juan de Vojníkov I think we should by-pass LC and ask on Foundation
5:13 PM: John|N: + 1
5:13 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: revolutionary thoughts - how dare you ? :-)
5:13 PM: Sharayanan: right
5:14 PM: Draicone: Hang on a second
5:14 PM: Juan de Vojníkov than LC can open a process to evaluate wv, but its their prob, not ours
5:14 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Juan: well, if we have community support I think we should talk to them.
5:14 PM: cormaggio: JWSurf - it wouldn't differ - i simply asked if there was a sufficient list of names somewhere
5:14 PM: Draicone: Bypassing the LC will achieve nothing. We are still very ad-hoc when it comes to establishing new WVs.
5:14 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad can't figure out how the subcomittee works when the SPC isn't working, but anyways :)
5:14 PM: dcrochet: so, it's 1:15 AM, i can't stay more. So, good night all
5:14 PM: dcrochet: i'm tired
5:14 PM: JWSurf:
5:14 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: au revoir dcrochet
5:14 PM: John|N: night dcrochet
5:15 PM: Sharayanan: 'nuit dcrochet
5:15 PM: Sundance_Raphael: n8 i must go to tommorow long day
5:15 PM: Juan de Vojníkov draicone: well its not our prob, it shoud evaluate a comitteee
5:15 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Gute N8 Sundance_Raphael
5:15 PM: cormaggio: hang on everyone - I'd like to say that I'm raising this with langcom at the moment - i'm awaiting response, and will bring it up with the board only if langcom do not acknowledge that this is outside their mandate
5:15 PM: John|N: nice dreams, Sundance_Raphael
5:15 PM: Sundance_Raphael: (homework and i am not very wll)
5:15 PM: Sundance_Raphael: thx
5:15 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: cormaggio: Nod
5:15 PM: Juan de Vojníkov dcrochet: good night
5:15 PM: cormaggio: oh yes SPC, that's another matter :-)
5:16 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: Sundance_Raphael: Feel better, night
5:16 PM: Sundance_Raphael: thx
5:16 PM: Daan_: All Europeans are going to sleep.
5:16 PM: Sundance_Raphael: cu all
5:16 PM: Sharayanan: i'm not
5:16 PM: HistoryOnTheRoad: be back in a bit ...
5:16 PM: Daan_: Bye bye.
5:16 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: not all :-)
5:16 PM: dcrochet: tchuÃ, goodbye, salut !!
5:16 PM: cormaggio: ok HOTR
5:16 PM: John|N: neither am I
5:16 PM: Draicone: Numbers slowly dwindle...
5:16 PM: Sharayanan: hope they won't get negative
5:16 PM: John|N: indeed
5:17 PM: John|N: we can get us some bots...
5:17 PM: John|N: it's scary...
5:17 PM: Daan_: What?
5:17 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: hi Wikizine_guest97
5:17 PM: John|N: no one says anything anymore...
5:18 PM: Daan_: That is true.
5:18 PM: Sharayanan: well what's the next topic ?
5:18 PM: John|N: spirit lost? :p
5:18 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: nope
5:18 PM: Daan_: Isn't Xahos the chairman?
5:18 PM: Daan_: zahos
5:18 PM: Draicone: Do we have a next topic?
5:18 PM: Sharayanan: if there's no idea, i propose that we present the several WV projects
5:18 PM: Zahos: M?
5:18 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: topics were
5:18 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * situation on Wikiversity and Wikibooks; is Wikibooks for more than just textbooks? If so, how is Wikiversity different and do you need Wikiversity?
5:18 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * Greek Wikiversity: "conditionally approved" but is now held up (see also)
5:18 PM: Draicone: Have we covered "What is the learning paradigm for Wikiversity?"
5:18 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * possible solutions:
5:18 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: 1. Maybe this meeting can count as a way to show that, "the Wikiversity people themselves indicate that it is a good idea that a new language version of their project is started".
5:18 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: 2. If matter continues to stall with the languages subcommittee, it might be an idea to raise the issue on Foundation-l and/or with the Board of Trustees.
5:18 PM: Sharayanan: Draicone: hardly

Learning paradigm[edit]

5:19 PM: Daan_: I like the paradigm discussion.
5:19 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: hi Wikizine_guest49
5:19 PM: Draicone: Can we cover it with 75% attendance, or is it worth waiting till next time for?
5:19 PM: Wikizine_g: a book-writing project has a definite aim, largely independent of the participants
5:19 PM: Juan de Vojníkov who knows what are Wikibooks, me not - Wikibookians know
5:19 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: I must shortly go to toilet, then I will join
5:19 PM: Wikizine_g: and it is finished once the book is finished
5:19 PM: John|N: whos there?
5:20 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: hop you'll handle it
5:20 PM: Daan_: Me!
5:20 PM: Wikizine_g: and you only need to update it
5:20 PM: Daan_: haha
5:20 PM: John|N is
5:20 PM: Wikizine_g: whereas a learning project is always new
5:20 PM: Juan de Vojníkov draicone: I think we can cover it and crucial points agree via mailing list by other people
5:20 PM: Wikizine_g: and it depends completely on the participants
5:20 PM: Sharayanan: Wikizine_guestwhat's your point ?
5:20 PM: Daan_: Yes, collective learning is not only about the topic, but also about the participants, that is special about wikiversity.
5:21 PM: Wikizine_g: a book-writing project is different from a learning project.
5:21 PM: Sharayanan: we do know
5:22 PM: John|N: Wikizine_guest97: I agree, it's probably not very useful to limit the learning pardigms (I hope I understood you right)
5:22 PM: Draicone: At this rate we'll be forking wikiversity into wikiresearch, wikiauthor, wikiclass and a hundred other child projects.
5:22 PM: Sharayanan: experiment first, deduce then
5:22 PM: Daan_: You are right John. Let's experiment first and see what works best, while being open minded.
5:23 PM: Draicone: What do you guys think about having a mentor involved in the learning programs?
5:23 PM: Sharayanan: Draicone: cannot be checked
5:23 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Sharayanan handle - hehe
5:23 PM: cormaggio: sorry - dipped into other discussion - back-tracking
5:23 PM: Juan de Vojníkov wv needs several more month to cristalize
5:23 PM: Sharayanan: everyone could present himself as a «mentor »
5:23 PM: Sharayanan: the essjay wrath is over XD
5:23 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: mentor: wasn't fr.WV doing this ?
5:23 PM: Draicone: Should we develop content to a point where students can teach themselves, or is having a mentor crucial to any program?
5:23 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: nope
5:24 PM: Daan_: essjay wrath?
5:24 PM: Sharayanan: there are « référents »
5:24 PM: Draicone: Daan_: enwp controversy. Google it.
5:24 PM: Sharayanan: Daan_: WP history
5:24 PM: Juan de Vojníkov draicone: nice idea
5:24 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: what is the difference between mentors and referents ?
5:24 PM: Sharayanan: i may explain if i have some time
5:24 PM: Daan_: Yes, i heard about it.
5:24 PM: Juan de Vojníkov students will like to teach themselves within a group
5:25 PM: Wikizine_g: like a university, wikiversity is a large sandbox with much freedom and little aim (unlike wikipedia or wikibooks) and out of it hopefully somebody would do something useful
5:25 PM: Sharayanan: « Référents » are several people that give help on a particular topic
5:25 PM: Sharayanan: generally teacher or students
5:25 PM: John|N: it might also be useful to switch the patterns once in a while (teacher - stundets - one student...)
5:25 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: so they are people who know the topic
5:26 PM: JWSurf: we are all learning how to form learning communities at Wikiversity, experimenting to find what works best
5:26 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: we would not consider writing things without being able to check them
5:26 PM: Daan_: Wikizine, i like to focus on structurizing: frequent meetings of participants. Otherwise Wikiversity will be a couple of pages written by a single person.
5:26 PM: John|N: Sharayanan: sounds like a good idea to me
5:26 PM: Juan de Vojníkov <JWSurf> we are all learning how to form learning communities at Wikiversity, experimenting to find what works best <-- thats why the time will show
5:27 PM: Sharayanan: i'll get an example to show you
5:27 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Sharayanan I see the point, but isn't also input from people who are not knowing good ? I mean deducing yourself info instead reading it only ?
5:27 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: example: yes
5:27 PM: atglenn: suppose people are trying to learn a language... they will want to have folks who are present on the wv that can give direction, answer questions, or even chat in irc in the target language (that is one possibility)...
5:27 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Sharayanan: yeah, thats a big future, review commissions
5:27 PM: Sharayanan: it's almost that indeed
5:27 PM: Draicone: What about, say, software engineering?
5:28 PM: Daan_: Did you start something yet?
5:28 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: I wonder with review commisions if this will be then a structure like WP in the end ?
5:28 PM: Draicone: Some courses need mentors, others don't.
5:28 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: will new/contrary ideas survive ?
5:28 PM: Daan_: Perhaps guilds could be a solution.
5:28 PM: John|N: Sharayanan: would be useful, if the referents would have references (like featured articles on wp) or something
5:28 PM: Sharayanan: unfinished symphony, hope you don"t care :à_la_simulation_numérique
5:28 PM: Daan_: Some guilds can have strict rules, while other are loosely and anarchistic.
5:28 PM: Draicone: Erkan_Yilmaz: If you mean will we have the bureaucracy and controversy, yes. We'll probably borrow half their processes too. But we won't have any essjay controversies for all its worth.
5:28 PM: Sharayanan: Sharayanan: it is sometimes done
5:29 PM: Sharayanan: John|N: it is sometimes done
5:29 PM: Draicone: What's our current topic?
5:29 PM: Daan_: I don't like centralization too much. Wikipedia is to bureaucratic and centrally organized.
5:29 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Draicone topic was: "What is the learning paradigm for Wikiversity? Are we supporting the traditional teacher-student model, the learn-by-doing model, or something else (or all of these)?"
5:30 PM: Daan_: Wikiversity could have a left-wing and a right-wing course on a single subject, without having the need for compromise.
5:30 PM: Wikizine_g: wikipedia is convergent since its aim is limited: to provide facts for the titled topic
5:30 PM: Draicone: Daan_: In that case, do we need more emphasis on the categorisation system and menu pages?
5:30 PM: Daan_: The same counts for most other projects of Wikimedia Foundation.
5:30 PM: Michael_Reschke: centralization - we don't need centralization, we need concentration...
5:30 PM: John|N: Most outsiders like centralization, becouse it makes the project easier to understand. The more alternative ways of working and organising etc. the more complex it is to understand how it works and therefore less people will support it, I think
5:31 PM: Sharayanan: we need motivation too
5:31 PM: Daan_: No, i am in favour of ad hoc organizing.
5:31 PM: Michael_Reschke: let me explain: I want all learnes of one topic in one course, then there is much communication between learners possible...
5:31 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: category: bringing structure into something to have overview
5:31 PM: Sharayanan: indeed, but the abilities of each learner depends
5:31 PM: Daan_: Some formats can be organized in order to atract people.
5:31 PM: Sharayanan: on the education he had
5:31 PM: Draicone: Daan_: Ad-hoc to the same extent as WP and maybe a little further, sure. But true ad-hoc organizing when we have a massive database of information to keep under control just doesn't work.
5:31 PM: Michael_Reschke: no, the abilities of each learner depends of the abilities of the whole community!
5:32 PM: Draicone: In any cases, ee need to remember that the more complex our structures are the harder it is for new students to get involved.
5:32 PM: Draicone: What happens when a new person visits Wikiversity?
5:32 PM: Wikizine_g: centralization is a means to help people find what they want
5:32 PM: Daan_: Okay.
5:32 PM: Daan_: But what do they want to find on Wikiversity?
5:32 PM: Wikizine_g: centralization is not for its own sake
5:32 PM: Michael_Reschke: nothing, we dont need new persons, we need courses, teachers and classes, learning groups, not individuals
5:33 PM: Michael_Reschke: centralization is the first step towards communication!
5:33 PM: Sharayanan: Michael_Reschke: el does need persons
5:33 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Michael_Reschke of course we need individuals, a group consists of individuals
5:33 PM: Wikizine_g: no
5:33 PM: Wikizine_g: communication is communication.
5:33 PM: Daan_: I am not against centralization, but against too much bureaucracy.
5:33 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: most paradigm changes come by outsiders or people who do not want the existing means
5:33 PM: Draicone: They briefly read the main page, maybe pick a school, pick a topic, read a course. How can our learning paradigms improve on that?
5:34 PM: Michael_Reschke: if you want that learners speak about Friedrich Schiller or the parliament in Great Britain, then you have to make sure, that there is a group of at least 10, 12 people, who wants to speak about this topic
5:34 PM: Daan_: By allowing different formats?
5:34 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: we all are still used the normal education methos of schools for the average person
5:34 PM: Michael_Reschke: learning groups, no individuals...
5:34 PM: Draicone: Daan_: And how do we do that?
5:34 PM: Juan_de_Vojnikov preferes to show sucessfull project and then he can discuss background structure!
5:34 PM: Wikizine_g: a university gives most of its powers to the professors
5:34 PM: Daan_: Michael, there are too little participants at the moment for that.
5:34 PM: Draicone: Wikizine_guest97: And who do we give most of our power to?
5:34 PM: Michael_Reschke: individuals can benefit from Wikiversity only as part of a smaller community = learning group
5:34 PM: Sharayanan: Juan_de_Vojnikov: you're right
5:34 PM: Wikizine_g: wikiversity should let the participants of the learning projects, of course
5:34 PM: Michael_Reschke: no, thats wrong,
5:34 PM: Wikizine_g: , decide.
5:35 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: Is it possible for a course to be fully self-contained and managed in such a way that individuals can teach themselves? Can our learning resources be that effective?
5:35 PM: John|N: decide what?
5:35 PM: Daan_: Draicone, by allowing experimentation for the moment and see what evolves from there.
5:35 PM: Juan de Vojníkov remeber that we are not a University, we offer are oplen to all (children.)
5:35 PM: Michael_Reschke: we have enough participants so that the Wikiversity runs, but not enough learning groups for take-off
5:35 PM: Wikizine_g: on whatever they are going to do in the project
5:35 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Juan_de_Vojnikov yes
5:35 PM: Michael_Reschke: @Draicone yes, let me explain
5:35 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: enough: the question also is if we have the technical means
5:35 PM: Sharayanan: Michael_Reschke: youre being anglo-centric again XD
5:35 PM: Wikizine_g: it is about looking to universities as a model of freedom of learning and expression.
5:35 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: perhaps the technical means do hinder also a faster growth
5:36 PM: Michael_Reschke: if some learnes at one course had more lessons, then they can help the others and newcomers...
5:36 PM: Michael_Reschke: it's possible
5:36 PM: Daan_: I don't know about the technology.
5:36 PM: Michael_Reschke: do you understand!?
5:36 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: imagine: without IRC we would have to discuss on the wiki pages which would take more time than being interactive like this
5:36 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: when using video conferences or alike you get much more info
5:36 PM: JWSurf: to populate learning projects, they need to be exciting....we can recruit participants from Wikipedia....that is where most of the world's wiki editors are
5:36 PM: Daan_: That is true.
5:36 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: better feedback
5:36 PM: Michael_Reschke: I want a school-community, helping each other, discussion and so working with the things at school
5:36 PM: Draicone: Erkan_Yilmaz: Ideally we'd have a VOIP conference and finish everything in 30 minutes.
5:36 PM: Michael_Reschke: then learning starts
5:36 PM: John|N: skype could be useful, as was proposed sometime ago
5:37 PM: Michael_Reschke: to populate learning projects, they need to be exciting....we can recruit participants from
5:37 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: why 30 ? and not 17 ? :-) telepathing
5:37 PM: Draicone: JWSurf: Maybe see if we can run a brief advertisement on Wikipedia under MW:SiteNotice?
5:37 PM: Michael_Reschke: excuse me, that is bullshit
5:37 PM: Juan de Vojníkov JWS: right
5:37 PM: Michael_Reschke: we dont need exciting courses, themes and materials
5:37 PM: JWSurf: <-- no, we can link to specific Wikipedia pages
5:37 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: Then what do we need?
5:37 PM: Wikizine_g: I can't hear half a dozen voices at the same time.
5:37 PM: Michael_Reschke: we need good materials and good climate to learn!
5:37 PM: Daan_: First start with structure: it is nice making plans, but people need to be on time in order to let something work in practise.
5:37 PM: John|N: Michael_Reschke: and a motivation to do it
5:38 PM: Daan_: Wikizine :-)
5:38 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: You mean environment? (climate ....)
5:38 PM: Michael_Reschke: we need learning groups at schools and universities using the Wikiversity as their working spage
5:38 PM: Michael_Reschke: space
5:38 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: good materials: this is task of other projects like Wp and WB, we need mostly a good culture
5:38 PM: Draicone: Yay, more english colloquialisms.
5:38 PM: Sharayanan: the french WV had a meeting a week ago in Paris, so that we put things clear recently XD easier that VOIP/IRC
5:38 PM: Draicone: Much easier
5:38 PM: Michael_Reschke: get normal classes, two, three of different schools to one topic in the Wikiversity and communication will start
5:38 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: this model is closed to other people, we already have them
5:38 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: I really liked the rencontre idea :-)
5:38 PM: JWSurf: "we dont need exciting courses, themes and materials.......we need good materials and good climate to learn!" <-- I do not see that as a choice of two different things
5:38 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: See technical writing on en.wv
5:39 PM: Michael_Reschke: what are you doing? have you understand, why Romeo loves Julia? Well our teacher explains...? Our work is now...
5:39 PM: Sharayanan: aren't you too strict about what WV could be ?
5:39 PM: Michael_Reschke: we need good material of the normal school topics...
5:39 PM: Daan_: Good material already exists abundantly with libraries and bookshops mnearly everywhere.
5:39 PM: Draicone: Okay, hold up for a moment. Who's running this meeting?
5:39 PM: Michael_Reschke: what are you doing? have you understand, why Romeo loves Julia? Well our teacher explains...? Our work is now... - this should be examples about possible communication at Wikiversity between pupils,
5:39 PM: John|N: even online
5:39 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: we do, but not the foreign communities
5:39 PM: Draicone: Zahos?
5:40 PM: Michael_Reschke: only silly examples
5:40 PM: Daan_: Draicone, nobody.
5:40 PM: Zahos: Yes?
5:40 PM: Michael_Reschke: <Juan_de_Vojnikov explain
5:40 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: in wiki-verse everybody can run :-)
5:40 PM: Daan_: You may run it, Draicone.
5:40 PM: JWSurf: "normal classes" <-- what does that mean? the bell rings at 8:00, everyone sits in a chair and listens to the certified teacher teach the accredited curriculum?
5:40 PM: Draicone: Okay then. We are currently discussing learning paradigms. What suggestions do we have?
5:40 PM: Michael_Reschke: @JWSUrf, thats wrong
5:40 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: benefit froum foreing learining comunities on wv is low
5:40 PM: Michael_Reschke: thats totally wrong
5:40 PM: Daan_: Me and erkan meet every weekend on a non-specific time on Wikiversity chat.
5:40 PM: Michael_Reschke: no...
5:40 PM: Michael_Reschke: let me explain...
5:40 PM: Sharayanan: Draicone: suggestion : complete freedom and wait-and-see attitude
5:41 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, the reading group
5:41 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: how about we let Michael_Reschke explain ?
5:41 PM: Draicone: Okay, so some propose that we offer full flexibility and experiment with different methods, to see which are most effective
5:41 PM: Daan_: There could also be a (slower) discussion on the talk pages.
5:41 PM: Daan_: Michael, go ahead.
5:41 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: What do you think?
5:42 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: other people are affraid to joint these communities, cus they feel they are closed to them
5:42 PM: Michael_Reschke: e.g. I want the pupils of the German schools using Wikiversity as something like moodle... pages only for their classes and then sites, who all of one topic-course can use
5:42 PM: Michael_Reschke: then we will have communication, then we can have communication outside the schoolbuildings and without the bell
5:42 PM: Michael_Reschke: do you understand
5:42 PM: Michael_Reschke: we are working togehter at this moment
5:42 PM: Michael_Reschke: something like this i want for normal schools
5:42 PM: Sharayanan: i do agree to some extent
5:43 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: well, it is a help for that appropriate class and for wikiversity system, but not for de.wv
5:43 PM: Daan_: It would be hard to convince school boards for this.
5:43 PM: JWSurf: I want the pupils of the German schools using Wikiversity <-- that's fine, but why would a school use Wikiversity?
5:43 PM: Michael_Reschke: pupils from different schools who have the possibility to discuss their school topis (eg Romeo and Julia) or so
5:43 PM: Michael_Reschke: then the can benefit
5:43 PM: Sharayanan: JWS some french schools do
5:43 PM: Daan_: Great!
5:43 PM: Michael_Reschke: but for that, we must concentrate these learners at special sites, coures, where they can meet - concentration
5:43 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: ok, so if it works, I will change my opinion
5:43 PM: cormaggio: JWSurf - we should be asking "how can a school use wikiversity?"..
5:44 PM: Michael_Reschke: you have no other possibility
5:44 PM: Michael_Reschke: I dont need a worse Word for classrooms
5:44 PM: Draicone: So, Michael is suggesting we encourage communication between schools and between individuals
5:44 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: you always have at least 3 possibilities, we just block them out :-)
5:44 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio: you hit the point
5:44 PM: Sharayanan: to give a very precise example : dcrochet (who left a hour ago) is a teacher in France, and he gives his pupils exercises on WV
5:44 PM: Sharayanan: they can read another version of the lessons and understand differerently
5:44 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: also Jeanpol from a university encourages his students to use de.WV
5:45 PM: Sharayanan: ask questions and so forth
5:45 PM: Michael_Reschke: no we need: getting normal classes, learning groups using Wikiversity for their things and then we must have a infrastructure to encourage communication between these learners
5:45 PM: Juan de Vojníkov cormaggio: they are all running moodle, so why they will change to wv?
5:45 PM: Michael_Reschke: an example for French
5:45 PM: JWSurf: " a teacher in France, and he gives his pupils exercises on WV" <-- that is fine, teachers using Wikiversity is one of the things that happens, but it is not all of Wikiversity
5:45 PM: Daan_: School boards want to be in control.
5:45 PM: Draicone: I encourage my computer science students to practice using the exercises and resources on Wikiversity
5:45 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Daan_ exactly
5:45 PM: Draicone: Daan_: Does that make us a school board?
5:45 PM: Daan_: They will not allow us to decide how their students will learn.
5:45 PM: Michael_Reschke: German classes learning French use - of course - the French Wikiversity, so native speakers can correct their mistakes and so learning and communication can start
5:45 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: because they would fear their reputation also, since the pupils represent the school, how they got taught and such
5:46 PM: Michael_Reschke: I dont want to take the school boards control
5:46 PM: Michael_Reschke: I want to give the schools a infrastructure like Wikiversity
5:46 PM: Draicone: (By the way, we should really use +v next meeting.)
5:46 PM: cormaggio: Juan - i think it is naive to expect people to change from Moodle to WV - we could firstly create content that they can use in Moodle, or we could be another space in which students can explore learning goals and activities
5:46 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: WV, in my mind, mostly comes as a complement to actual teaching
5:46 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: You're assuming that Wikiversity is the right infrastructure for learning over systems such as Moodle.
5:46 PM: Michael_Reschke: and behind this, I want to encourage communication, so that learning will be much more effectively
5:46 PM: Michael_Reschke: Wikiversity can be a better Moodle
5:46 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Sharayanan this is because we are used to normal education- why shouldn't it be possible to use WV and other technical means to go the other way ?
5:47 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: Regarding technical infrastructure, it's nowhere near Moodle and never will be.
5:47 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: of course, but this was about the boards angry about others taking control on the pupils
5:47 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: normally in school is hierarchy, you get the topics selected
5:47 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: you mean to give them infrastructure like Wikiversity, within the WMF project or to prepare a special WM page for them on their server?
5:47 PM: Michael_Reschke: you can use Wikiversity to learn nearly everything I think, even to learn Moodle, but why you should waste time learning Moodle, when Wikiversity makes the job much better?
5:47 PM: Michael_Reschke: mom
5:47 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Sharayanan I see
5:48 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: How can you compare Moodle and Wikiversity?
5:48 PM: Daan_: The good thing about wikiversity is that it is for free.
5:48 PM: Juan de Vojníkov I would say Wikimedia offers more than Moodle, but Wv ?
5:48 PM: Sharayanan: yeah
5:48 PM: Draicone: Moodle is learning software, Wikiversity is an information repository.
5:48 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Moodle can be/is also free
5:48 PM: Michael_Reschke: Wikiversity and Moodle are both Virtual Learning Environments
5:48 PM: Draicone: They're both free; free as in beer and (maybe not wv) free as in freedom.
5:48 PM: Daan_: I don't know about Moodle.
5:48 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: the question is always how much time it costs to learn to use it
5:48 PM: Daan_: ;-)
5:48 PM: Michael_Reschke: look here
5:48 PM: Michael_Reschke:
5:48 PM: Michael_Reschke: one course
5:48 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: No, Moodle and MediaWiki are both Virtual Learning Environments.
5:48 PM: Michael_Reschke: an area for learning groups
5:48 PM: Michael_Reschke:
5:49 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: nice to see that wv, can do the better job, but show as how, I am sceptic
5:49 PM: Michael_Reschke:
5:49 PM: Michael_Reschke: the room of one learning group, their private site
5:49 PM: Michael_Reschke:
5:49 PM: Michael_Reschke: a central site with materials for all courses and learning groups
5:49 PM: Michael_Reschke: one forum for all
5:49 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: in the end it is just about editing and presenting pages (with content)
5:49 PM: Michael_Reschke:
5:50 PM: Juan_de_Vojnikov is clicking
5:50 PM: Draicone: Okay, can we pause and take a quick recap before we move on?
5:50 PM: Michael_Reschke: give the classes their own site and give them central sites to communicate with other learning groups at the same time
5:50 PM: Michael_Reschke: Wikiversity makes it possible, but we have not enough pupils and classes, this course is only a example without life...
5:50 PM: Sharayanan: i come back in a minute
5:50 PM: Michael_Reschke: Ok
5:51 PM: Draicone: So, some are suggesting we have many different learning paradigms and observe the successes of each to determine which are most effective.
5:51 PM: Juan de Vojníkov yes, communication and sharing knoweledge is very important
5:51 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke is suggesting something along the same lines but emphasising communication between the different topics.
5:51 PM: Michael_Reschke: Let me say something other: We will need something like moodle for special tasks: Tests, the medial possibilities, and for materials, which are not free and so cant be public in the world wide web
5:51 PM: Daan_: Micheal, i think your plans could come into fruition if we have a much larger network of people.
5:51 PM: Michael_Reschke: yes, thats my opinion too
5:51 PM: Daan_: Now, it is too small and too inactive to be noted.
5:52 PM: Draicone: So we really don't have a discussion going here, we're just all agreeing with each other. Why are we here tonight?
5:52 PM: Sharayanan: i may talk a bit about another french particularity ; «Niveaux »
5:52 PM: Michael_Reschke: but we dont need individuals, only classes can use sites for learning groups and produce good materials
5:52 PM: JWSurf: this meeting was called in order to get the Greek Wikiversity started
5:52 PM: Michael_Reschke: we need some schools, which start
5:52 PM: Daan_: We are also meeting eachother. I don't know many of you guys yet.
5:52 PM: Sharayanan: according to a « niveau », we adapt learning methods
5:52 PM: Michael_Reschke: Now, it is too small and too inactive to be noted.
5:52 PM: Draicone: JWSurf: And have we got the Greek Wikiversity started?
5:52 PM: Michael_Reschke: that s wrong
5:52 PM: Michael_Reschke: look at the first Wikipedia-articles
5:52 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Draicone not yet
5:53 PM: Michael_Reschke: we only need some schools, which do their normal things using our infrastructure
5:53 PM: Daan_: JWSurf, i thought there were several topics on the agenda.
5:53 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: Please do not blatantly reject the views of others. This meeting is a constructive discussion.
5:53 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Michael: you have my support in this
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: agenda:
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * short introduction (by ZaDiak?)
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * does any participant object to posting a log of the chat in public places afterwards?
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * situation on Wikiversity and Wikibooks; is Wikibooks for more than just textbooks? If so, how is Wikiversity different and do you need Wikiversity?
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * Greek Wikiversity: "conditionally approved" but is now held up (see also)
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * possible solutions:
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: 1. Maybe this meeting can count as a way to show that, "the Wikiversity people themselves indicate that it is a good idea that a new language version of their project is started".
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: 2. If matter continues to stall with the languages subcommittee, it might be an idea to raise the issue on Foundation-l and/or with the Board of Trustees.
5:53 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: * What is the learning paradigm for Wikiversity? Are we supporting the traditional teacher-student model, the learn-by-doing model, or something else (or all of these)?
5:53 PM: JWSurf: " i thought there were several topics on the agenda" <-- shit happens
5:53 PM: Michael_Reschke: Draicone wrote me: "Michael_Reschke: Please do not blatantly reject the views of others. This meeting is a constructive discussion"
5:53 PM: Michael_Reschke: I think he is right!!!
5:53 PM: Sharayanan: lol
5:54 PM: Michael_Reschke: it's my personal view
5:54 PM: Juan_de_Vojnikov thinks the case of el, was closed by the agreement to help
5:54 PM: Sharayanan: Michael_Reschke: it's true you're kinda strict and assertive
5:54 PM: Draicone: Then please refrain from putting forward your personal views as anything but your personal views.
5:54 PM: Michael_Reschke: I try to make clear what I believe is right, but I thing your experiences are very well too
5:54 PM: Draicone: In any case, we have now moved on to the discussion of learning paradigms.
5:54 PM: Sharayanan: for this, i tried to talk about « niveaux » but nobody cared XD
5:55 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: you were not aggressive enough Sharayanan :-)
5:55 PM: Daan_: You mean niveau as in quality?
5:55 PM: Michael_Reschke: @Juan thx
5:55 PM: Daan_: haha
5:55 PM: Sharayanan: niveau can be translated as « level »
5:55 PM: Draicone: We are all in agreement that we allow the various schools to effectively do their own thing, and see which methods work the best, while some suggest a little more control, and everyone is generally happy with Michael's concept of communication, although some believe it will require a larger audience to be succesful
5:55 PM: JWSurf: "learning paradigms" <-- this was defined by the Wikiversity project proposal, people should read the approved project proposal
5:55 PM: Daan_: In Dutch niveau means quality :-)
5:55 PM: Draicone: cormaggio: By the way, could you assist us in using +v for the next meeting?
5:56 PM: Sharayanan learnt a thing tonigh
5:56 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: what is that Sharayanan ?
5:56 PM: Daan_: Nice summary, Draicone.
5:56 PM: Draicone: Okay, what do we need to discuss on learning paradigms at present?
5:56 PM: cormaggio: Draicone - sorry, were you depending on me for that?
5:56 PM: Draicone: Daan_: It's your summary, actually ;)
5:56 PM: John|N: haven'T we done that already?
5:56 PM: Draicone: cormaggio: No, but we definitely need it and I don't have chanop on #wikiversity.
5:56 PM: Daan_: JWSurf, there is also the matter of applying the paradigm.
5:57 PM: Sharayanan: niveaux allows us to explain and adapt how a lesson comes to its point, by using different approaches, different materials
5:57 PM: cormaggio: Draicone - I'll need guidance on this - I'm a crap op ;-)
5:57 PM: Sharayanan: so that youngs and olds may find content they can understan
5:57 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Sharayanan so this means you review the situation often to find this out ?
5:57 PM: John|N: cormaggio: query ChanServ
5:58 PM: Sharayanan: this allows us to modulate the «learning paradigm » and give seeveral versions
5:58 PM: Draicone: cormaggio: /msg ChanServ HELP and look around for channel modes that require +v. I'll see if I can get chanop for next time.
5:58 PM: John|N: cormaggio: than write "help voice"
5:58 PM: cormaggio: JWSurf - I'm not sure "learning paradigms" were so clearly spelt out - what was clear was that WV is an experiment to see what paradigms work
5:58 PM: Daan_: Sharayan, but how can Wikiversity be better than school, library, television, other websites?
5:58 PM: JWSurf: "there is also the matter of applying the paradigm" <-- I agree, but it does not make sense to try to back-track now and define a narrow paradigm, single out just one way to use Wikiversity to support learners...there are many paths to be explored
5:58 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: so you have several pages, e.g. a path like: for beginners, for experts ?
5:58 PM: Draicone: So, are we all agreed that there is no need to focus on one particular paradigm?
5:58 PM: cormaggio: Draicone - can I simply make you op?
5:58 PM: Sharayanan: Daan_: it may not be better, yet it may be more easy to find
5:58 PM: John|N: I think so
5:59 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, for instance
5:59 PM: Michael_Reschke: will there be a protocoll of this communication? I will save this site to read it tomorrow, but will you save it public?
5:59 PM: Zahos: Guys
5:59 PM: Daan_: That is true.
5:59 PM: Zahos: Good night
5:59 PM: JWSurf: the log of the meeting will be posted
5:59 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, I will save and summarize the main points also
5:59 PM: John|N: cormaggio: only for now, he wont be op later or be able to make himself an op
5:59 PM: Zahos: I am going to bed
5:59 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: or JWSurf doe sit :-)
5:59 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: The logs of this discussion will be made public.
5:59 PM: Juan de Vojníkov there is no need in this time to focus on on particular paradigm
5:59 PM: Daan_: I am going to bed as well.
5:59 PM: cormaggio: ok John|N
5:59 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: sleep lekker Daan_
5:59 PM: Juan de Vojníkov zahos: good, night
5:59 PM: Michael_Reschke: thx
5:59 PM: Zahos: Bye guys
5:59 PM: Draicone: Okay, let's continue this meeting next time with a fixed agenda.
6:00 PM: Draicone: Thanks to everyone for attending!

Plans for next meeting[edit]

6:00 PM: John|N: cormaggio: otherwise you may have to ask Kurt (that is Kurt Jansson), I believe
6:00 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Zahos: I think we done a lot in the way to help el
6:00 PM: Juan de Vojníkov and others...
6:00 PM: Zahos: Sure :-)
6:00 PM: Sharayanan: most of the people here kept quiet though
6:00 PM: John|N: well, a full two hours
6:00 PM: cormaggio: I'll need to read this discussion - I've been elsewhere for a lot of it :-(
6:00 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Zahos: Yes, sure!
6:00 PM: John|N: cormaggio: much fun with that ;p
6:01 PM: John|N: might take months
6:01 PM: cormaggio: hehe :-)
6:01 PM: cormaggio: <giggle>
6:01 PM: Sharayanan: the next time, please *don't* talk about WB
6:01 PM: John|N: *g*
6:01 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Sharayanan: if all of as talk, I couldnt reed posts
6:01 PM: cormaggio: indeed - well, this is the subject of my PhD after all...
6:02 PM: Juan_de_Vojnikov needs also to sleep
6:02 PM: cormaggio: I'll look up op status also - thanks draicone
6:02 PM: Sharayanan: i guess nothing more will be said tonight
6:02 PM: John|N: good night Juan_de_Vojnikov
6:02 PM: Sharayanan: i'll leave as well
6:02 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: well I could say some things :-)
6:02 PM: cormaggio: but yeah, I'm knackered - need sleep
6:02 PM: Sharayanan: oh ?
6:02 PM: Sharayanan: Erkan_Yilmaz: i'm listening XD
6:02 PM: JWSurf: speak, Erkan
6:02 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: kidding, go to bed
6:02 PM: Sharayanan: lol
6:02 PM: cormaggio: who is posting the log, and where?
6:03 PM: JWSurf: I can post the log to a subpage of
6:03 PM: Sharayanan: bye people
6:03 PM: JWSurf:
6:03 PM: Draicone: JWSurf: That would be best, thanks
6:03 PM: cormaggio: good, thanks John - will read with fresh eyes in the morning :-)
6:03 PM: Juan_de_Vojnikov thinks that there were many peoply lucky to share their ideas worldwide, so it would be nice to have more meeting here on the channel
6:03 PM: JWSurf: zzzzzzzzzzzz for all Europeans
6:03 PM: cormaggio: I agree Juan :-)
6:04 PM: cormaggio: yep, we'll leave you Americans/New Zealanders to hash it out further ;-)
6:04 PM: JWSurf: Draicone wants to discuss the sandbox server
6:04 PM: Juan de Vojníkov yeah, you Ammericans are on a higher level - you dont need:-)
6:04 PM: cormaggio: night all
6:04 PM: Draicone: JWSurf: Not now, we'll have to leave it till next meeting
6:04 PM: JWSurf: right
6:04 PM: Draicone: JWSurf: In any case we need to organise the meetings a little bit more to the point where we can maintain a topic
6:05 PM: JWSurf: [18:03]* Juan_de_Vojnikov it would be nice to have more meeting here on the channel
6:05 PM: atglenn: well, next tme we might pick *one* topic and just talk about that for the hour
6:05 PM: Juan de Vojníkov JWS: and someone Wiki Campus Radio, suprisingly not me
6:05 PM: John|N: have a care all and nice days, as well as a nice night - see ya
6:05 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Draicone: yes
6:05 PM: Draicone: atglenn: I think meetings will be a good venue for people to bring up topics they feel need discussion, and we can try and have some controlled input
6:05 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: bye John|N
6:05 PM: Draicone: Okay, discussion about next meeting?
6:05 PM: JWSurf: "organise the meetings a little bit more" <-- you expect order and clarity?
6:06 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: well, at the begin it was a little time consuming, probably comes with experience
6:06 PM: Juan de Vojníkov Draicone: hopefully, well not tired the americans:-)
6:06 PM: JWSurf: maybe we should have a page at beta.wikiversity to plan new meetings
6:06 PM: atglenn: Draicone: yes, but with 20 people and one hour, we're unfortunately limited. taking one topic and letting people fill that out seems a better use of time (plus collecting topics for future meetings)
6:07 PM: Draicone: Well, we can manage 1-2 topics per meeting if we have regular, short meetings
6:07 PM: Juan de Vojníkov friends next time earlier please, Slavs like to go to sleep early
6:07 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, earlier
6:07 PM: Draicone: I think 30 minutes per topic is more than enough if the discussion doesn't get out of hand
6:07 PM: Juan de Vojníkov I see t also
6:08 PM: Draicone: Juan_de_Vojnikov: We'll try and shift the time around but this seems to be most convenient for people in general
6:08 PM: atglenn: remember that irc among 20 people is much slower than talking
6:08 PM: JWSurf: Wikiversity:IRC meetings
6:08 PM: Draicone: Unless we can manage the discussion
6:09 PM: JWSurf: Draicone: it sounds like you want a moderator and people have to ask to "speak" during the meeting
6:09 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: hm
6:10 PM: JWSurf: thanks for the correct URL, Erkan
6:11 PM: Juan_de_Vojnikov sees Michael is specialized in wv marketing
6:11 PM: Draicone: Erkan_Yilmaz: By the way, do you want to delete File:BOOKCOVER RESTRUCTURING.gif?
6:11 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: let me see
6:11 PM: Michael_Reschke: I'm specialized in communication ;-)
6:11 PM: Draicone: I agree with you on the deletion, it isn't appropritae for wikiversity.
6:12 PM: Draicone: Michael_Reschke: That's a relief, I'm specialised in non-communication ;)
6:12 PM: Michael_Reschke: and communication of Wikiversity is part of this ;-)
6:12 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: I remember User talk:Equidata1
6:12 PM: Juan_de_Vojnikov will put a flowers on W3 tomb
6:12 PM: Juan de Vojníkov good nighe
6:12 PM: Juan de Vojníkov night
6:12 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: please somebody else delete it then, since I proposed the original question
6:13 PM: Michael_Reschke: night
6:13 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: Gute Nacht
6:13 PM: Michael_Reschke: Ich bleib noch erhalten, räume meinen Schreibtisch auf, immer noch, packe Bücher in eine rote Kiste und lasse solange den Rechner (inkl. IRC) auch noch laufen
6:13 PM: Michael_Reschke: ;-)
6:13 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: ok
6:14 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: so, who is still active here then ?
6:14 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: only 3 ?
6:14 PM: atglenn: I am still here
6:14 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: hey Ariel
6:14 PM: Erkan_Yilmaz: me also :-)
6:14 PM: atglenn: can we officially (as in I can stop logging) call a close to the public dicussion?
6:15 PM: JWSchmidt: I'm trying to pull up the log